Can I use a handheld for DME?

[N999BT]

Maybe some of you more experienced instrument pilots can chime in here. In its infinite wisdom the FAA has decided to change the approaches at my home airport (KCOE) to require either DME or ADF. I don't think I can legally fly an instrument approach into Coeur d'Alene anymore. The old ILS 5 approach is now the ILS or LOC/DME RWY 5, there is a RNAV (GPS) RWY 5, VOR RWY 5, and VOR/DME RWY 1. The ILS approach has no way to identify the FAF other than DME, the VOR 5 approach has DME or ADF required, the VOR/DME RWY 1 requires DME, and of course the others require a certified GPS.

So, can I legally fly the ILS approach using a handheld GPS for DME? I currently have an SL-30 nav/com and a 496 for navigation and GS, along with a backup 195.

[morlino]

Nope. Actually, it's my understanding that you can't even use a panel mounted IFR GPS to substitute for DME; if the name of the approach contains the letters DME then you actually need DME to fly it. Of course, I'm far from an expert on this - I'm currently studying for my instrument written....

[scard]

Originally Posted by morlino

Nope.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by morlino

Actually, it's my understanding that you can't even use a panel mounted IFR GPS to substitute for DME; if the name of the approach contains the letters DME then you actually need DME to fly it. Of course, I'm far from an expert on this - I'm currently studying for my instrument written....

I disagree here. You need the stated equipment (DME) if it is in the approach Title. Otherwise, you may substitute IFR GPS if the position, fix, or whatever is pulled from the database. Example: If the approach is a VOR/DME approach title, you need both. If it is just titled VOR approach, but has available fixes in it that are based on DME or NDB or whatever, you may substitute IFR GPS for those points if you load them from the database. Clear as mud now I'm sure .

Yeah, it looks like you are out of luck without DME or IFR GPS.

[RVFlyer]

In a word...no. It isn't legal. Like many things in aviation it may be safe but it isn't necessarily legal. As a CFI I usually find myself saying the opposite "just because it's legal, doesn't mean it's safe". This is different in my opinion. I've flown behind many crappy DMEs but rarely has my GPS given me a concern.

Another consideration... I don't think it would even be an issue unless there was an accident. At which time, your DME will probably be the least of your concerns.

[BlackRV7]

Originally Posted by scard

Otherwise, you may substitute IFR GPS if the position, fix, or whatever is pulled from the database. Clear as mud now I'm sure .

Yeah, it looks like you are out of luck without DME or IFR GPS.

I hate to jump in with a "me too", I totally agree with Scott here, as long as the fix referenced in the DME portion of the approach is pulled from the database of the IFR GPS, and not a waypoint which has been added by you, yes, the IFR GPS can be used in lieu of DME.

Sorry, the 496 cannot be legally substituted and can only be referenced for situational awareness.

[morlino]

Originally Posted by scard

I disagree here. You need the stated equipment (DME) if it is in the approach Title. Otherwise, you may substitute IFR GPS if the position, fix, or whatever is pulled from the database. Example: If the approach is a VOR/DME approach title, you need both. If it is just titled VOR approach, but has available fixes in it that are based on DME or NDB or whatever, you may substitute IFR GPS for those points if you load them from the database. Clear as mud now I'm sure .

Actually, you said what I was trying to say. If the approach plate says DME in big bold letters in the upper right corner then you need it. If I didn't need to write code I would pop the semicolon key off my keyboard

[scard]

Originally Posted by morlino

Actually, you said what I was trying to say. If the approach plate says DME in big bold letters in the upper right corner then you need it. If I didn't need to write code I would pop the semicolon key off my keyboard

Roger. Now that I read again, I agree, you were on the right track. I think too many of us (me included) have written too much code such that we stop at the semicolon .

[BillSchlatterer]

AOPA pushed this through a long time ago.

Effective July 16, 1998, pilots may substitute IFR-certified GPS receivers for DME and ADF avionics for all operations except NDB approaches without a GPS overlay. GPS can be used in lieu of DME and ADF on all localizer-type approaches as well as VOR/DME approaches, including when charted NDB or DME transmitters are temporarily out of service. It also clarifies that IFR GPS satisfies the requirement for DME at and above Flight Level 240 specified in FAR 91.205(e). This approval represents a major step toward removing the need to retain DME or ADF in our cockpits for any reason.

Handheld is still a problem.

Bill S
7a finishing

[morlino]

That's interesting Bill. After some searching I found this link to an AOPA page that has the information you mentioned.

Anyway, it seems to contradict what I (and apparently other people) learned in ground school. I'd be happier if I could find some mention of it in FAR 91 Subpart C or 1-1-19 of the AIM. Is it there and I just don't see it?

[RV8Squaz]

You just don't see it. It is in 1-1-19, sub paragraph f. Use of GPS in lieu of ADF and DME. My AIM is a little old, 2007, but I don't think the location has changed.

Jerry
N84JE RV-8 325 hrs doing second condition inspection.

Originally Posted by morlino

That's interesting Bill. After some searching I found this link to an AOPA page that has the information you mentioned.

Anyway, it seems to contradict what I (and apparently other people) learned in ground school. I'd be happier if I could find some mention of it in FAR 91 Subpart C or 1-1-19 of the AIM. Is it there and I just don't see it?