Wide patterns

LettersFromFlyoverCountry · #1 11-02-2005, 09:10 AM

Noticed this description on the VAF front page today:

"As we were lifting off the Cessna was turning crosswind way off of the departure end at what seemed like about 500 or 600' agl. In no time we were looking down at him as he turned a "WIDE" downwind."

500 feet AGL is exactly the height my CFI taught me to be when starting the crosswind turn. How 'bout you?

Bob Axsom · #2 11-02-2005, 09:32 AM

That may be true for typical performance on some aircraft but is certainly not a requirement nor is typical in an RV unless you are looking for a dramatic zoom climbing turn at the end of the runway.

Bob Axsom

n468ac · #3 11-02-2005, 10:10 AM

i was taught ... on take off straight, level, and hold runway heading until 900 agl

... most of the time i climb 1100 or 1200 agl before turning (in a RV it doesn't take long to get that high).

gmcjetpilot · #4 11-02-2005, 10:15 AM

Bob's:

500 feet is standard min, upwind to X-wind turn altitude.When following slow planes we have to extend upwind to get following distance.

500 feet is usually the min altitude to make a power change, but there is nothing wrong with turing higher, closer to pattern altitude. We climb so fast it is not an issue.

There is on solution

, It is called the REL or "Rate of Event Lever, also called the throttle. When following slow traffic, pull it way back. RV's are fast but they can be flown slow. Van recommends this (I think it is a great idea), practice slow flight/ min control speed. It may help in the pattern somedays.

My takeoff was behind slow traffic and both he and I where departing on the down wind. I called the guy, he saw me, I saw him and he let me pass on the inside while he was a little wide. Bottom line you must keep the traffic in sight for collision avoidance. Out climbing and overtaking can be a bad situation in the pattern.

George

jcoloccia · #5 11-02-2005, 10:28 AM

I mostly fly a 7KCAB out of Fox Field. The runway's HUGE. I'm typically at TPA before I hit the end of the runway so my limiting factor is waiting until I get clear of the end of the runway before turning.

Funny that none of my instructors ever mentioned a specific height...hmmmm. I just kinda turn when it seems like it's reasonable to turn, and try to keep the pattern tight 'cause that's my comfort level. When I have to follow someone on downwind, they're always, like, WAY the heck out there it seems and I get very uneasy flying that far away from the runway. Maybe I get lonely out there...I don't know. 1/2 the time I'll just stay close, throttle back, and watch them zip around the pattern at cruise speed. They typically miss the first couple of taxiways but that's OK because at MACH .5 the third taxiway come up real quick and they're off by the time I'm ready to set down.

Is there a reason for the specific heights? I've never thought about it before, but now that you mention it, it seems like I shouldn't just be guessing. I'd also be interested to know what other people do and why.

Bob Axsom · #6 11-02-2005, 11:16 AM

When I left Oshkosh this year oh well it gets long - short version I had to exercise some judgement to avoid a situation that threatened to go unsafe and as PIC I turned cross wind and then down wind over near the lake. The guy ahead was in some sort of semi-ultra light and he was flying past the specified cross wind turn point at an amazingly slow speed. I believe he was following a non-departing aircraft but who knows. I was not about to join him in the error. Sometimes the the text book for standard situations does not promote safety and you have to recognize those situations and act accordingly.

Bob Axsom

LettersFromFlyoverCountry · #7 11-02-2005, 11:48 AM

Right, thanks, I wasn't referring to the RV's AGL, but the Cessna's. If he/she/it was starting his crosswind as stated, I'm just saying that's the way I learned too (in a Cessna).

Not sure how I'll do it in an RV yet. (sigh)

gmcjetpilot · #8 11-02-2005, 12:09 PM

AIM: Chapter 4, Section 3, Part 2, Par. c-6

6. Departure leg. The flight path, which begins after takeoff and continues straight ahead along the extended runway centerline. The departure climb continues until reaching a point at least 1/2 mile beyond the departure end of the runway and within 300 feet of the traffic pattern altitude.

HERE IS THE REF:

http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap4/aim0403.html#4-3-2

It is more a distance from the end of the runway than altitude. However from common sense and avoiding hitting things, I think 500 feet is a good rule of thumb.

However I have found memories of a particular runway I departed routinely, when taking off in the wrong direction from the intended departure direction, I would ask for an early turn out before a crossing runway. The Tower would always approve. I turned and went right past the tower. It was safe, avoided other traffic landing on crossing runway, over airport property with no obstacles and in the event of an engine failure I was aligned with a long crossing runway. So there is no altitude rule, just airmanship with safety in mind. Make your choice; you are the Captain, responsible for all decisions. The day after, if you had to explain what and why you did what you did, what will you say? Common sense and cover your derri?re.

George

caryr · #9 11-02-2005, 12:10 PM

its a little off subject but

I hate to follow some folks around the landing pattern.

their downwind is so long that if they had to make an off-airport they would have to catch the bus back to the airport.

come on -- tighten it up a notch

i feel better now

cary

LettersFromFlyoverCountry · #10 11-02-2005, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcoloccia

Is there a reason for the specific heights? I've never thought about it before, but now that you mention it, it seems like I shouldn't just be guessing. I'd also be interested to know what other people do and why.

I learned in the Twin Cities and most of the reliever airports -- well, the ones I fly out of -- have 'safety zones' off the end of the runway. My instructor just kept hammering the "land straight ahead if the engine goes out" theme and straight ahead was the best choice in terms of development etc. I doubt it would matter if the airport was surrounded by cornfields, but alas, mine had 30-story buildings on one side and a Mississippi River bluff on the other.

He also said once you're at 500 feet, you can at least begin to "think" about turning back toward the airport (maybe make a cross runway or something), but by thinking "no turns until 500 feet AGL", it makes it easier to focus on landing straight ahead.

But I'd never considered the impact on departing following traffic.