Is this a realistic project?

[penguin]

Originally Posted by FlyingArcher

Hi Pierre,

I've located small allen plugs and according to the Lycoming parts catalog I have, they seem to be used for a primer system. Am I correct?

Daniel, The hose in this picture is attached to the primer port (thanks to Bill R), bear in mind this is quite an old engine - or it might be an O-290, but an O-320 is not much different. If you have injector ports they are higher up on the cylinder quite close to a push rod tube. Airflow Performance offer injectors that can be fitted to the primer ports.

Pete

[FlyingArcher]

Originally Posted by penguin

Daniel, The hose in this picture is attached to the primer port (thanks to Bill R), bear in mind this is quite an old engine - or it might be an O-290, but an O-320 is not much different. If you have injector ports they are higher up on the cylinder quite close to a push rod tube. Airflow Performance offer injectors that can be fitted to the primer ports.

Pete

Thanks Pete,

This is the exact same place where I've found the small headless allen screw.

If someone has a picture of an injector port on (very) old O-320 cylinders, I'd love to see one, but I think my cylinders are not equipped with them (or I should really wear these glasses )

Well, I think I'll contact people from Airflow to enquire on the available options they offer for my engine.

Thanks to all for your valuable help and hints.

[FlyingArcher]

Well,

Looking at pictures I've found while googling, I've located the boss on my cylinder, but it's not drilled so I'll have to use the primer ports.

[frankh]

Not drill and tap the bosses for the injectors?

As long as you can drill straight I don't know of any reason why you could'nt do this yourself?

Frank

[N941WR]

Originally Posted by penguin

Daniel, The hose in this picture is attached to the primer port (thanks to Bill R), bear in mind this is quite an old engine - or it might be an O-290, but an O-320 is not much different...

Pete, it is both an old engine and an O-290. That is the primer port.

I suggest he drill and tap the boss for the injection while he has the cylinders off. It won't cost that much to have done and will be the "best" thing to do.

[FlyingArcher]

Originally Posted by frankh

Why not drill and tap the bosses for the injectors?

As long as you can drill straight I don't know of any reason why you could'nt do this yourself?

Frank

Originally Posted by N941WR

Snip..
I suggest he drill and tap the boss for the injection while he has the cylinders off. It won't cost that much to have done and will be the "best" thing to do.

Bill, Frank,

You both seem to imply that drilling the boss and using it would be a better solution than using the existing (and already drilled) primer port. Do you have a specific reason for that? Just curious. Apart from that, I'm not reluctant to use my drill press to do that and as Bill said, once the cylinder is off it might not be that hard to place that boss horizontally and drill through it. I guess the drill and tap dimensions are standard and should be documented somewhere, unless one of you already know the answer

Cheers

[B25Flyer]

I have wondered for years why someone doesn't set up an EFI system using aftermarket automotive system.

Then use a Posa or an Ellison TBI as the throttle valve and use a failsafe to open selinoid valve to shut off the fuel to the TBI and if the electrical system fails it would automatically open the fuel valve to the TBI.

Safety valve would be hooked to the power switch on the EFI and when the power was on to the EFI it would be closed and when the power was off to the mechanical system, it would be open and operate on the mechanical system.

Doug

[Randy]

As an alternative, you might consider converting to Ross Farnham's SDS system. I have seen photos on his site of a Lycoming adapted to use his system. I don't know the exact cost but I would bet it to be considerably less expensive than going with a certified EFI system. Check near the bottom of this page: http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html

Randy C
RV7A Subaru STI with SDS and turbocharger.

[FlyingArcher]

Here is information from Bart at Aerosport Power related to drill/tap dimensions

Bart wrote:
Daniel the actual angle of the injector is not important. The ones I have done, I just center the bore on the boss and replicate the angle as close as I can. The drill bit size is .332 (Q). The threads are 1/8 NPT. Be careful not to over tap the bore or the injectors will bottom out before they tighten up.

Bart

I also had an interesting exchange with Don Rivera from AFP that he authorized me to report here so that anyone looking for the same info would find some answers by searching this forum.

Don Wrote:
We have two different kits that will fit a up draft sump 320. With a 9A there are some considerations to consider regarding the Van's air box (FAB) .

The 8000013 kit will fit with the stock carburetor cowling. Since this is a smaller cowl you will have to modify the FAB by moving the air filter so that it rests directly on the bottom of the fiberglass box. This should give clearance to the bottom of the FAB to the cowling but it's tight. The distance from the sump to the bottom of the FAB in this configuration is within 1/4" of what it is with the MA-4 carburetor. I also know of possible clearance issues with 320 sumps on "A" models to the nose gear structure as there are different 320 sumps with the carb hole closer to the rear of the sump than other models of the 320 sump. This can be solved by re fabricating the air box mount plate so that the FAB is moved forward. You will also have to modify the supplied throttle and mixture control cable brackets to provide clearance for the nose gear tubing. Using the cowl for the IO-360 or carbureted 360 is deeper so there is more clearance for the FAB and no modification to the bottom cowl or FAB is required with the exception of the possible interference of the FAB with the nose gear structure.

As far a nozzle placement goes, putting the nozzle in the top of the cylinder heads is preferred as it keeps the nozzle lines on the cold side of the engine and keeps the nozzle lines shorter. If you install the nozzles in the primer ports there other considerations that are considered. 1) the vent on the nozzle body is lower than the discharge side of the nozzle there fore after shut down fuel could drip out the vent. Since the nozzles are in the vicinity of the exhaust pipes, this is not a good thing. On this installation we have shrouded nozzles (turbo nozzles) which are vented to a common rail on each side of the engine. The vent rails are then vented overboard or in your installation vented into the air box. 2) While there is no performance change in the two systems (nozzles in the primer port, or nozzles in the tops of the cylinder head) installing the nozzles in the primer ports adds some complexity and additional cost to the system. From a safety stand point installing the
nozzles in the primer ports will require the same consideration wether you use a Precision Silverhawk system or our AFP system. I know Precision does not address these installation issues.

You will of course have to install a high pressure electric boost pump and a high pressure engine driven fuel pump. You can purchase the electric pump and filter from Van's or add the pump and filter to the kit (we manufacture the electric pump and filter for Van's). If you add those parts to the kit add another $500.00. We can also supply the high pressure engine driven fuel pump. Add an additional $350.00 to the kit price.

So I summarized:
1 - Using the primer ports is doable, but it's simpler and safer to use top of cylinder heads ports.
2 - When ordering FWF kit from VAN's I should ask for (I)O-360 cowls and FAB instead of (I)O-320 so that I don't get bothered by clearance issues.

Don answered:
1) I don't think that putting the nozzles in primer ports is un-safe if done correctly, only a more complex and costly installation. We have done this type of installation many times.
2) You are correct in this statement.

[chaskuss]

Originally Posted by B25Flyer

I have wondered for years why someone doesn't set up an EFI system using aftermarket automotive system.

Then use a Posa or an Ellison TBI as the throttle valve and use a failsafe to open selinoid valve to shut off the fuel to the TBI and if the electrical system fails it would automatically open the fuel valve to the TBI.

Safety valve would be hooked to the power switch on the EFI and when the power was on to the EFI it would be closed and when the power was off to the mechanical system, it would be open and operate on the mechanical system.

Doug

Doug,
The big advantage of EFI for cars, is that it helps improve emissions and fuel economy over a wide range of throttle settings. Our aircraft tend to run at over 50% power (hence a small throttle range) while climbing or cruising. Therefore, we won't see much if any improvement over mechanical fuel injection. The down sides to using EFI on a Lycoming are:
1 More work (design and fabrication)
2 More weight
3 Higher electric current draw during alternator failure operations. This could cut your "battery only" flight time down considerably. The typical modern car uses over 8 amps to run it's ignition and fuel injection systems. Assuming a 4 amp draw to operate the EFI injectors and control box would greatly reduce your "battery only" range in an emergency. This can be overcome with the addition of a secondary battery. However, that adds to problem #2.
I know of a local GlaStar where the builder did install an aftermarket, EFI system designed for automotive aftermarket use. He never got the kinks entirely out of the system.
Charlie Kuss