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  #1  
Old 12-11-2008, 10:17 AM
Bob Axsom Bob Axsom is offline
 
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Default "Quiet" Cockpit

I recently read a comment by an RVator that his old David Clark headset was no longer adequate and another that said straight (not turned down) exhaust tips caused such a loud drumming sound in the cockpit that he had to buy some turned down extensions. Because of these and other comments I feel I should make a recommendation based on my experience in our RV-6A which is both used for long distance travel and races with the turned down exhaust tips sawed off.

I bought the materials and the upholstery video from Becki Orndorff for insulating the cockpit and with the O-360 running anywhere up to 2730 rpm and I have never had the noise discomfort that has been described here. I have the aluminum foil black rubbery sheet material on the back of the firewall inside the cockpit. On the floor between the stringers I have the thick black sheet rubber covered with carpet. On the side walls I have thin white foam covered with my upholstery material. My sliding canopy seal is unique and I don't know of anyone that has duplicated it yet but it is sealed all around and the design includes a side skirt rib hack sawed from 3/16" aluminum bar stock with a sheet rubber seal glued to it to seal against the side of the roller tracks. Aft of the track I added an upturned 1/16"x3/4"x3/4" angle to provide a fuselage to skirt overlap and eliminated the aft skirt hang down skag. All of the canopy perimeter except the black seal to the roller track is the soft white "P" strip from Aircraft Spruce. The plane is no more noisy inside than my old Archer II was. As far as weight is concerned 100 lbs is equal to 1 knt in speed per the old rule of thumb.

I just felt I had to give this experience to provide food for thought in the finishing stages in building an RV.

Bob Axsom
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  #2  
Old 12-11-2008, 10:57 AM
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lostpilot28 lostpilot28 is offline
 
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Default

Hi Bob,
Thanks for that. It is indeed food for thought. One thing that comes to mind, though, is that all of this is subjective. I wonder if anyone has access to a db meter and could actually measure the sound inside their cockpit. It would be very intesting to compile a list of a few different types of aircraft and compare that with an RV.
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  #3  
Old 12-11-2008, 11:42 AM
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plehrke plehrke is offline
 
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Location: Defiance, MO
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Default Not always a speed trade

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Axsom View Post
As far as weight is concerned 100 lbs is equal to 1 knt in speed per the old rule of thumb.
You may be right about the speed impact but:

100 lbs is equal to 100 lbs of bagage or fuel
100 lbs is equal to ~0.1g
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  #4  
Old 12-11-2008, 02:06 PM
Bob Axsom Bob Axsom is offline
 
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Default Speed and Transport are Everything to Me

Speed and transport are all that matter to me and the insulation probably weighs less than 10 pounds rather than the rule of thumb 100 pounds. To each his own.

Bob Axsom
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  #5  
Old 12-11-2008, 02:18 PM
rv9aviator rv9aviator is offline
 
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Location: Arkansas
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Default

Hi Bob,
I was wondering if I could take a look at your plane sometine and maybe get your thoughts on a few things. I am right now in the stage of building to add insulation to the cockpit. I come to Springdale quite often to deliver to Trutrak and could drive over to Drake or wherever you are located.

Thanks
jim
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Last edited by rv9aviator : 12-11-2008 at 02:18 PM. Reason: same old thing spelling
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  #6  
Old 12-11-2008, 02:31 PM
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L.Adamson L.Adamson is offline
 
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Location: KSLC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Axsom View Post
Speed and transport are all that matter to me and the insulation probably weighs less than 10 pounds rather than the rule of thumb 100 pounds. To each his own.
My 6A was weighed with floor carpet and insulation but currently has none. I much prefer the quieter insulated 9A's that I've flown.........so it's getting insulated this winter. And BTW, I don't have down turned pipes, and it doesn't seem to drum. Or I just could even be deafer than I think I am. I definately need ANR's though!

L.Adamson
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  #7  
Old 12-11-2008, 03:31 PM
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hydroguy2 hydroguy2 is offline
 
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Location: Townsend, Montana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lostpilot28 View Post
Hi Bob,
....... I wonder if anyone has access to a db meter and could actually measure the sound .......
I've got the proper meter, just need a flying RV. Come to 8U8 for a free test.
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  #8  
Old 12-11-2008, 05:20 PM
Bob Axsom Bob Axsom is offline
 
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Default Sure Jim

Quote:
Originally Posted by rv9aviator View Post
Hi Bob,
I was wondering if I could take a look at your plane sometine and maybe get your thoughts on a few things. I am right now in the stage of building to add insulation to the cockpit. I come to Springdale quite often to deliver to Trutrak and could drive over to Drake or wherever you are located.

Thanks
jim
I am at Drake Field. Call 479-267-5206 and we can work it out.

Bob Axsom
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  #9  
Old 12-11-2008, 05:50 PM
rv9aviator rv9aviator is offline
 
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Thanks Bob,

I'll call when I get a chance to come and if your busy we'll do it on another trip. Thanks again
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  #10  
Old 12-14-2008, 09:00 AM
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DanH DanH is offline
 
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Location: 08A
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Default

Animation of vibratory modes for a rectangular panel:

http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/D...re/Square.html

I'm building an -8, a model which has shown some tendency to crack belly skin in the first panel behind the gear structure. I've been thinking about exhaust system configuration and sound energy, and doing some reading, and I recently had a nice exchange with my engineering mentor. So a few thoughts. I can be right or wrong about any of them, but they should all make for interesting conversation.....

The success of attempts to "insulate" against sound transmission will vary between RV models not sharing common structure because individual panels vary in dimension. Some panels will merely mimic (re-transmit, if you will) the sound energy applied to their outer surface. However, due to size and dimension, some panels may have a natural frequency matching the exhaust frequency(s). Those panels will resonate. Interior noise from those panels will be louder, and the panel will be subject to fatigue cracking too. I don't have the equation(s) for predicting the natural frequency of rectangular or square panels, but perhaps we have a reader who does, and would be willing to check some typical panel sizes?

Resonant or non-resonant, the approach Bob suggests (the rubber sheet stuff) should help. If the panel is resonant, changing its natural frequency by stiffening it with some additional stucture may be the best first move.

The 2nd and 4th order exhaust noise is a relatively low frequency. For example, 2nd order firing frequency at 2500 RPM is only 83 hz and the 4th order harmionic is 163hz. At these frequencies we should be able to check belly skin vibration by direct observation with a good variable rate strobe. I have one, and I have seen some absolutely amazing things with it, among them entire fabric skin panels pulsing in and out like the gills of a fish. No reason to believe the same isn't true for metal panels. (I've also seen control pushrods go resonant at some particular engine RPM, which will scare the snot out of you if you think about it.) Strobe observation is very cold work in the winter, but when the weather warms I'd be happy to do a survey.

At low frequencies, sound energy from a point source is not particularily directional. If I understand correctly, when frequency is less than the speed of sound divided by tailpipe diameter, you can expect sound energy to not be a lot less when measured in the quadrant behind the pipe outlet than when measured in the quandrant in front of the pipe outlet. There is a matter of "near field" vs "far field", near being a half wavelength of so. At these frequencies, the belly skin is very much in the near field. The rule is pretty absolute in the far field; the near field is more complex, and I'm too dumb to understand it all. I can say we're way down the frequency spectrum here (f = 0.1 c/d or less), so pointing the exhaust outlet away from the belly doesn't fully explain any perceived reduction in cockpit low frequency noise, or skin panel cracking for that matter. The tailpipe can supply higher frequencies; those can be directional, and so some preceived reduction may well be in those higher frequencies.

Distance from the point source is a big deal. Sound energy is subject to an inverse square rule. Again there are near and far field differences, but in general, if you double the distance available energy is 1/4. Moving the pipe outlet away from the belly is important to reduce energy at the belly skin.

A 90 degree turndown of the tailpipe has the potential to introduce a new vibration to the airframe, and it has nothing to do with sound. The exhaust gas exiting the pipe has mass and velocity, so the tailpipe reacts like a poor rocket nozzle. Because the exhaust gas comes in pulses, so does the thrust, and the pipe can vibrate up and down. This may shake certain airframe parts depending on pipe attachment, or work pipe expansion and ball joints pretty hard.

Note the distinct difference between sound energy (pressure waves in a media) and those exhaust gas pulses (moving mass with intertia). Throwing those pulses of hot expanding gas against the belly skin panels should beat the panels pretty throughly. I suspect moving them along parallel to the surface would also rattle belly belly skin; I imagine them expanding and mixing with the ambient air in some turbulent manner. Clearly pointing the pipe downward a little bit would have a large effect here.

I'm gonna go work on my airplane now <g>
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