RV & Rocket Competitive Speeds

Bob Axsom · #1 11-06-2008, 07:38 PM

I mined some RV and Rocket information out of the past two years of race results (www.sportairrace.org) and pasted them here. It comes out a little awkward but I think you can follow it. In the RV classes Red = 320 cu. in. and Blue = 360 cu. in. Dick Martin has a 390 and that is why he does not fly in one of the RV classes. There are some class options so one Rocket is in the Unlimited class. I find this stuff interesting and thought some others might like to see it as well.

Bob Axsom

Pilot Class Aircraft Type Speed MPH Speed Kts
Martin, Tom Sport FX EVO Rocket 266.54 231.62
Siegel, Paul Sport FX EVO Rocket 255.49 222.01
Martin, Tom Sport FX EVO Rocket 247.29 214.89
Martin, Tom Sport FX EVO Rocket 244.21 212.21
Martin, Tom Sport FX EVO Rocket 243.31 211.43
Holcomb, Gene Sport FX EVO Rocket 230.62 200.41
Siegel, Paul Sport FX EVO Rocket 222.95 193.74
Hadath, Wayne Sport FX F1 Rocket 251.55 218.59
Meyn, Wolfgang Unlimited F1 Rocket 249.55 216.86
Hadath, Wayne Sport FX F1 Rocket 245.32 213.17
Hadath, Wayne Sport FX F1 Rocket 243.38 211.49
Hadath, Wayne Sport FX F1 Rocket 238.65 207.38
Edmiston, Ray Sport FX F1 Rocket 234.77 204.01
Linebaugh, Jeff Sport FX F1 Rocket 234.64 203.9
Rhodes, Howard Sport FX F1 Rocket 231.86 201.48
Butcher, Darren Sport FX F1 Rocket 230.25 200.09
Holcomb, Gene Sport FX F1 Rocket 230.01 199.87
Edmiston, Ray Sport FX F1 Rocket 229.97 199.84
Edmiston, Ray Sport FX F1 Rocket 227.79 197.94
Berry, Dean Sport FX F1 Rocket 222.27 193.15
Manda, Mark Sport FX Harmon Rocket 230.10 199.95
Marshall, Wayne Sport FX Harmon Rocket II 212.97 185.07
Vasey, Bob RV Red RV-3 207.10 179.96
Vasey, Bob RV Red RV-3 205.01 178.15
Hackett, Willy RV Red RV-3 187.53 162.96
Murphy, Chris RV Red RV-4 214.06 186.01
Murphy, Chris RV Red RV-4 211.40 183.67
Harris, Winn RV Blue RV-4 209.02 181.60
Murphy, Chris RV Red RV-4 207.52 180.33
Murphy, Chris RV Red RV-4 205.43 178.51
Benton, Cam RV Red RV-4 200.37 174.12
Murphy, Chris RV Red RV-4 198.83 172.78
Benton, Cam RV Red RV-4 196.13 170.43
Smith, Dwight RV Red RV-4 195.5 169.88
Benton, Cam RV Red RV-4 191.50 166.40
Murphy, Chris RV Red RV-4 190.62 165.65
Bruggers, Ken RV Blue RV-4 187.24 162.71
Smith, Dwight RV Red RV-4 182.28 158.39
Attaway, Robbie RV Blue RV-6 214.58 186.47
Berry, Damon RV Blue RV-6 213.06 185.11
Thompson, Mike RV Blue RV-6 203.95 177.23
Weisgerber, Dave RV Red RV-6 203.91 177.92
Thompson, Mike RV Blue RV-6 203.29 176.66
Thompson, Mike RV Blue RV-6 202.15 175.66
Thompson, Mike RV Blue RV-6 201.51 175.11
Thompson, Mike RV Blue RV-6 200.49 174.22
Thompson, Mike RV Blue RV-6 198.65 172.62
Thompson, Mike RV Blue RV-6 196.91 171.11
Thompson, Mike RV Blue RV-6 192.40 167.20
Thompson, Mike RV Blue RV-6 208.01 180.72
Axsom, Bob RV Blue RV-6A 223.89 194.56
Axsom, Bob RV Blue RV-6A 208.81 181.45
Axsom, Bob RV Blue RV-6A 207.44 180.26
Axsom, Bob RV Blue RV-6A 207.13 179.99
Klusmier, Larry RV Red RV-6A 205.87 178.90
Axsom, Bob RV Blue RV-6A 205.56 178.63
Axsom, Bob RV Blue RV-6A 203.52 176.86
Axsom, Bob RV Blue RV-6A 202.92 176.33
Axsom, Bob RV Blue RV-6A 195.53 169.91
Axsom, Bob RV Blue RV-6A 194.16 168.72
Heathco, Charlie RV Red RV-6A 186.17 161.75
Lee, Ron RV Blue RV-6A 182.59 158.66
Axsom, Bob RV Blue RV-6A 216.80 188.36
Mullaney, John RV Blue RV-7 216.54 188.17
Klusmier, James RV Blue RV-7 211.56 183.84
Thompson, Mike RV Blue RV-6 199.11 173.02
Haley, Gary RV Blue RV-7 199.09 173.00
Moore, Tom RV Blue RV-7A 217.97 189.41
Moore, Tom RV Blue RV-7A 215.09 186.91
Verdier, Jean-PierreRV Blue RV-7A 212.74 184.87
Moore, Tom RV Blue RV-7A 205.15 178.27
Verdier, Jean-PierreRV Blue RV-7A 185.30 161.02
Huft, John RV Blue RV-8 249.91 217.17
Huft, John RV Blue RV-8 235.40 204.56
Ross, Jon RV Blue RV-8 233.14 202.59
Martin, Dick Sport FX RV-8 231.63 202.28
Huft, John RV Blue RV-8 224.15 194.78
Martin, Dick Sport FX RV-8 223.67 194.36
Carroll, Allan RV Blue RV-8 222.97 193.76
Christman, Dave RV Blue RV-8 222.00 192.88
Ross, Jon RV Blue RV-8 221.00 192.04
Carroll, Allan RV Blue RV-8 220.68 191.77
Schryver, Fred RV Blue RV-8 215.76 187.49
Jordan, Scott RV Blue RV-8 212.72 184.85
Schryver, Fred RV Blue RV-8 212.72 184.85
Jones, Bryan RV Red RV-8 195.00 169.45
Labarreare, Chuck RV Blue RV-8A 198.74 172.7

Bob Axsom · #2 11-07-2008, 10:47 AM

I thought you might be interested in a sort by speed only, regardless of class to see how the various RVs and Rockets stack up against each other in the past two years of actual competition. Notice John Huft and Jon Ross in their "360" powered RV-8s.

Bob Axsom

Pilot Class Aircraft Type Speed MPH Speed Kts
Martin, Tom Sport FX EVO Rocket 266.54 231.62
Siegel, Paul Sport FX EVO Rocket 255.49 222.01
Hadath, Wayne Sport FX F1 Rocket 251.55 218.59
Huft, John RV Blue RV-8 249.91 217.17
Meyn, Wolfgang Unlimited F1 Rocket 249.55 216.86
Martin, Tom Sport FX EVO Rocket 247.29 214.89
Hadath, Wayne Sport FX F1 Rocket 245.32 213.17
Martin, Tom Sport FX EVO Rocket 244.21 212.21
Hadath, Wayne Sport FX F1 Rocket 243.38 211.49
Martin, Tom Sport FX EVO Rocket 243.31 211.43
Hadath, Wayne Sport FX F1 Rocket 238.65 207.38
Huft, John RV Blue RV-8 235.40 204.56
Edmiston, Ray Sport FX F1 Rocket 234.77 204.01
Linebaugh, Jeff Sport FX F1 Rocket 234.64 203.9
Ross, Jon RV Blue RV-8 233.14 202.59
Rhodes, Howard Sport FX F1 Rocket 231.86 201.48
Martin, Dick Sport FX RV-8 231.63 202.28
Holcomb, Gene Sport FX EVO Rocket 230.62 200.41
Butcher, Darren Sport FX F1 Rocket 230.25 200.09
Manda, Mark Sport FX Harmon Rocket230.10 199.95
Holcomb, Gene Sport FX F1 Rocket 230.01 199.87
Edmiston, Ray Sport FX F1 Rocket 229.97 199.84
Edmiston, Ray Sport FX F1 Rocket 227.79 197.94
Huft, John RV Blue RV-8 224.15 194.78
Axsom, Bob RV Blue RV-6A 223.89 194.56
Martin, Dick Sport FX RV-8 223.67 194.36
Carroll, Allan RV Blue RV-8 222.97 193.76
Siegel, Paul Sport FX EVO Rocket 222.95 193.74
Berry, Dean Sport FX F1 Rocket 222.27 193.15
Christman, Dave RV Blue RV-8 222.00 192.88
Ross, Jon RV Blue RV-8 221.00 192.04
Carroll, Allan RV Blue RV-8 220.68 191.77
Moore, Tom RV Blue RV-7A 217.97 189.41
Axsom, Bob RV Blue RV-6A 216.80 188.36
Mullaney, John RV Blue RV-7 216.54 188.17
Schryver, Fred RV Blue RV-8 215.76 187.49
Moore, Tom RV Blue RV-7A 215.09 186.91
Attaway, Robbie RV Blue RV-6 214.58 186.47
Murphy, Chris RV Red RV-4 214.06 186.01
Berry, Damon RV Blue RV-6 213.06 185.11
Marshall, W.Sport FXHarmon Rocket II 212.97 185.07
Verdier, Jean-PierreRV Blue RV-7A 212.74 184.87
Jordan, Scott RV Blue RV-8 212.72 184.85
Schryver, Fred RV Blue RV-8 212.72 184.85
Klusmier, James RV Blue RV-7 211.56 183.84
Murphy, Chris RV Red RV-4 211.40 183.67
Harris, Winn RV Blue RV-4 209.02 181.60
Axsom, Bob RV Blue RV-6A 208.81 181.45
Thompson, Mike RV Blue RV-6 208.01 180.72
Murphy, Chris RV Red RV-4 207.52 180.33
Axsom, Bob RV Blue RV-6A 207.44 180.26
Axsom, Bob RV Blue RV-6A 207.13 179.99
Vasey, Bob RV Red RV-3 207.10 179.96
Klusmier, Larry RV Red RV-6A 205.87 178.90
Axsom, Bob RV Blue RV-6A 205.56 178.63
Murphy, Chris RV Red RV-4 205.43 178.51
Moore, Tom RV Blue RV-7A 205.15 178.27
Vasey, Bob RV Red RV-3 205.01 178.15
Thompson, Mike RV Blue RV-6 203.95 177.23
Weisgerber, Dave RV Red RV-6 203.91 177.92
Axsom, Bob RV Blue RV-6A 203.52 176.86
Thompson, Mike RV Blue RV-6 203.29 176.66
Axsom, Bob RV Blue RV-6A 202.92 176.33
Thompson, Mike RV Blue RV-6 202.15 175.66
Thompson, Mike RV Blue RV-6 201.51 175.11
Thompson, Mike RV Blue RV-6 200.49 174.22
Benton, Cam RV Red RV-4 200.37 174.12
Thompson, Mike RV Blue RV-7 199.11 173.02
Haley, Gary RV Blue RV-7 199.09 173.00
Murphy, Chris RV Red RV-4 198.83 172.78
Labarreare, Chuck RV Blue RV-8A 198.74 172.7
Thompson, Mike RV Blue RV-6 198.65 172.62
Thompson, Mike RV Blue RV-6 196.91 171.11
Benton, Cam RV Red RV-4 196.13 170.43
Axsom, Bob RV Blue RV-6A 195.53 169.91
Smith, Dwight RV Red RV-4 195.5 169.88
Jones, Bryan RV Red RV-8 195.00 169.45
Axsom, Bob RV Blue RV-6A 194.16 168.72
Thompson, Mike RV Blue RV-6 192.40 167.20
Benton, Cam RV Red RV-4 191.50 166.40
Murphy, Chris RV Red RV-4 190.62 165.65
Hackett, Willy RV Red RV-3 187.53 162.96
Bruggers, Ken RV Blue RV-4 187.24 162.71
Heathco, Charlie RV Red RV-6A 186.17 161.75
Verdier, Jean-Pierre RV Blue RV-7A 185.30 161.02
Lee, Ron RV Blue RV-6A 182.59 158.66
Smith, Dwight RV Red RV-4 182.28 158.39

Christopher Murphy · #3 11-07-2008, 11:11 AM

Bob,
Your break down was interesting to look at. I know what my RV-4 will do as far as max true airspeed within one or two knots at its fastest altitude. When you look at the spread in the speeds of similar airplanes with similar engines ( displacement anyway) it is remarkable I think.

Your data makes me think a race in the staight line speed dash format ( ie. 1mile over a runway) would really be interesting. It would reduce the effects of playing the wind and pilot skill on the race course. I like those factors in xc racing but it would be interesting to see how the airplanes perform without those factors.

I would like to know which airplanes have souped up engines. The desparity in the speeds of the Rockets which raced over the same course (ie Memphis) really puzzles me.

Chris Murphy RACE34

Lycosaurus · #4 11-07-2008, 11:13 AM

Bob,

I see you are the fastest RV-6 out there. Congratulations are in order.

I have a question regarding the racing speeds you achieve and VNE. I believe the VNE for the -6 is 210 mph. Do you have to do anything special to test for flutter at the higher speeds? Just curious.

rv6ejguy · #5 11-07-2008, 11:41 AM

It should be noted that Bob flies a 6A, much to the chagrin of 6 pilots. Way to go Bob!

Bob Axsom · #6 11-07-2008, 12:06 PM

Usually I am right at the published VNE (sometimes the red line gets a little fat) but I will never knowingly test for in-flight flutter. With all of the mods I have made, exceeding the recommended VNE is an issue that I have to think about. Thus far it isn't a concern but if someday I can come up with a more powerful engine and a better prop I will be able to exceed it easily. The VNE is based on Indicated Airspeed and sometimes like this year's AirVenture Cup race my altitude was unusually high (9,500 ft, normally it is more like 500-1,000 ft AGL) and the indicated airspeed did not exceed the VNE. The race results are calculated based on straight line course length and elapsed time so as with this years Airventure Cup race from Mitchell, South Dakota to Oshkosh, wind can give some great looking speeds (ground speed) without threatening the airplane.

Bob Axsom

Christopher Murphy · #7 11-07-2008, 03:34 PM

Hello Deven,

At lower altitudes the indicated and true airspeed are pretty close but at higher altitudes they get farther apart. Unless your RV is turbo charged chances are you will have a hard time exceeding Vne at the higher altitudes in LEVEL FLIGHT because of the loss of horse power. I ran the A_V Cup this year at a speed of 214mph.(186kts+/-) Some of the race I was above 11,000 feet with a big tail wind but my True Airspeed was down to 150 kts or so with a ground speed of over 209 kts. (I have a photo of the GPS ) Last year I ran the race below 2000msl with indicated speeds around 180 kts.

I am careful not to exceed the Vne in True Airspeed at higher altitudes and like Bob I don't want to be testing for flutter.

On these round robin races playing the wind is part of the challenge. One has to know how their plane performs at various density altitudes to know when to go up or down to get the best wind vs. max TAS. These races can be won or lost by 1 knot. After each race you will hear some racers lamenting their altitude decisions.... I know I have. If you are considering a race I highly recommend it. Its fun and its a great group of folks.

Chris Murphy RACE34

n5lp · #8 11-07-2008, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher Murphy

...Some of the race I was above 11,000 feet with a big tail wind but my True Airspeed was down to 150 kts or so with a ground speed of over 209 kts. (I have a photo of the GPS ) Last year I ran the race below 2000msl with indicated speeds around 180 kts...

I am thinking you meant to say your IAS was down to 150 kts. If your TAS was that low you wouldn't be competitive at all.

SteinAir · #9 11-07-2008, 04:21 PM

What's really amazing about these numbers is that Huft managed sometimes to out-o some of the rocket guys....what's going on there?!!?

Cheers,
Stein

Christopher Murphy · #10 11-07-2008, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n5lp

I am thinking you meant to say your IAS was down to 150 kts. If your TAS was that low you wouldn't be competitive at all.

Larry,
My true airspeed was about 155 kts I think the indicated was under 125kts that was between 11 and 11500msl. I think my full throttle rpm was under 2500 but I can't recall for sure. One of the points I was making is that the higher you go the bigger the split between indicated and TAS. ie. The jet I fly at work indicates about 230kts at Fl 370 but is actually flying at about 470 kts. I know this is flight school 101 but I had a tail wind of over 50 kts for part of the race. The fast planes( Lancairs and Relentless ) did over 300 kts in the race I think some of those guys went up to 17.5. I had to decide at what altitude did the loss of horsepower and TAS out weigh the gain in tailwind. I could tell exactly when that wind kicked in by the turb and direction. We had some weather issues on the race course and that forced most of us off of our profiles. Normally I would not go that high. I also had to reduce power for a time due to a rain shower( wood prop). Again, do I slow down and stay on course or keep the speed up and fly more miles around the rain?
Chris Murphy RACE34

The other planes in my class (RV-RED) have the same engine displacement so in theory if they were at my altitude our speeds would be similar.. in other words that 155kts TAS was competitive enough to win the race.