IFR and TSO Equipment

[sjhurlbut]

I'm fighting a battle here in Canada of whether I need a TSO'd altimeter or not for IFR flight.

I've had the "VFR only" restrictions removed over 2 years ago and have been flying IFR with a non-TSO'd altimeter all along.

Now it time to get my re-cert and the avionics shop insists I need to replace my altimeter (which works perfectly) for a $850 TSO'd version. This is despite the fact that a senior advisor from Transport Canada agrees with me that I DO NOT require a TSO'd altimeter (have the email to prove it). Since there is only 1 avionics shop in the Canadian maritimes I'm kind of stuck until the issue gets sorted out. So either I've been flying IFR illegally for 2 years or someone else has the info wrong.

So I'm looking for US documentation that specifically says TSO'd equipment is not required for IFR flight in amateur built aircraft. If I can find the US documents it will help track down the Canadian equivalent.

Thanks
Steve
7A Flying

[hevansrv7a]

1. Canadian rules are likely different than U.S. If the airplane is to be registered in Canada then U.S. rules won't help you much.
2. If you intend to fly to the U.S. then when crossing the border except with a prior, explicit waiver, you will need and operating Mode C transponder and that does have to be TSO'd.
3. I can't cite the rule in the FAR's but my altimeter IS certified for IFR flight and is NOT TSO'd. That said, it did have to have an IFR check to 20,000' by a technician legally entitled to perform it. That check included the reported pressure altitude sent to the transponder.
4. There is a mutual letter between FAA and Transport Canada. EAA has a copy on their website. If you intend to fly in the U.S. then carry a copy of the letter with your aircraft papers.

I hope this helps a little.

[sjhurlbut]

Originally Posted by hevansrv7a

1. Canadian rules are likely different than U.S. If the airplane is to be registered in Canada then U.S. rules won't help you much.
2. If you intend to fly to the U.S. then when crossing the border except with a prior, explicit waiver, you will need and operating Mode C transponder and that does have to be TSO'd.
3. I can't cite the rule in the FAR's but my altimeter IS certified for IFR flight and is NOT TSO'd. That said, it did have to have an IFR check to 20,000' by a technician legally entitled to perform it. That check included the reported pressure altitude sent to the transponder.
4. There is a mutual letter between FAA and Transport Canada. EAA has a copy on their website. If you intend to fly in the U.S. then carry a copy of the letter with your aircraft papers.

I hope this helps a little.

I'm aware of all these issues and have flown IFR and VFR in the states many times.

The reason I ask for the US documentation is that is WILL help me. Transport Canada uses FAA generated documents especially TSO documentation such as C10b, C74c, and C88b.

The altimeter checks (to 20,000 ft), transponder checks, and the pitot-static checks are the same in both countries.

Just need to find a firm statement on the TSO non-requirement.

Steve
7A Flying

[az_gila]

Sec. 91.411

Altimeter system and altitude reporting equipment tests and inspections.

(a) No person may operate an airplane, or helicopter, in controlled airspace under IFR unless--
(1) Within the preceding 24 calendar months, each static pressure system, each altimeter instrument, and each automatic pressure altitude reporting system has been tested and inspected and found to comply with appendix E of part 43 of this chapter;
(2) Except for the use of system drain and alternate static pressure valves, following any opening and closing of the static pressure system, that system has been tested and inspected and found to comply with paragraph (a), appendices E and F, of part 43 of this chapter; and
(3) Following installation or maintenance on the automatic pressure altitude reporting system of the ATC transponder where data correspondence error could be introduced, the integrated system has been tested, inspected, and found to comply with paragraph (c), appendix E, of part 43 of this chapter.
(b) The tests required by paragraph (a) of this section must be conducted by--
(1) The manufacturer of the airplane, or helicopter, on which the tests and inspections are to be performed;
(2) A certificated repair station properly equipped to perform those functions and holding--
(i) An instrument rating, Class I;
(ii) A limited instrument rating appropriate to the make and model of appliance to be tested;
(iii) A limited rating appropriate to the test to be performed;
(iv) An airframe rating appropriate to the airplane, or helicopter, to be tested; or
[(v) deleted]
(3) A certificated mechanic with an airframe rating (static pressure system tests and inspections only).
(c) Altimeter and altitude reporting equipment approved under Technical Standard Orders are considered to be tested and inspected as of the date of their manufacture.
(d) No person may operate an airplane, or helicopter, in controlled airspace under IFR at an altitude above the maximum altitude at which all altimeters and the automatic altitude reporting system of that airplane, or helicopter, have been tested.

---------------------

The actual requirement seems to be "tested"

(3)(c) seems to say that no testing is needed on new TSO equipment until the first two years....

But the rest of the FAR says that "if tested" by the appropriate folks in the previous 24 months.

The Part 43, Appendix E, which define the testing standard, is here...

http://rgl.faa.gov/REGULATORY_AND_GU...b!OpenDocument

...sounds like any avionics shop should be able to test your non-TSO altimeter to these standards.

Anyone else read it differently?

[sjhurlbut]

The testing standards are exactly the same in Canada. But no where in the regs have I found a statement that says "non-TSO'd equipment is permitted for IFR flight as long the aircraft is non-certified, i.e. amatuer built".

All the testing, all the paperwork is the same in Canada for certified aircraft and amateur built, I just can't find that magical statement that permits me to use non TSO'd.

I know its allowed I just need that killer statement to present to the jury.

Steve
7A

[az_gila]

Originally Posted by sjhurlbut

The testing standards are exactly the same in Canada. But no where in the regs have I found a statement that says "non-TSO'd equipment is permitted for IFR flight as long the aircraft is non-certified, i.e. amatuer built".

All the testing, all the paperwork is the same in Canada for certified aircraft and amateur built, I just can't find that magical statement that permits me to use non TSO'd.

I know its allowed I just need that killer statement to present to the jury.

Steve
7A

Did you find one that says "it must be TSO'd"?

If not, then I would say the IFR flight requirements would be applicable...

FAR 91.141 says what is needed for IFR flight, and even has an initial constuction statement.

[Mel]

The regs never state that something "non-TSOd may be used." It is the fact that it does not say that it MUST be TSOd. FARs are usually written in "negative" terms. Example: Regs don't say, "You can fly at night if properly equipped." They say, "You can't fly at night unless properly equipped."

[Kevin Horton]

Steve,

The equipment requirements in CAR 605.18 do not mention a TSO requirement for altimeters for IFR flight. The calibration checks are called up in CAR 605.86, (requirement for a maintenance schedule), and the details of the required maintenance schedule are in CAR Std 625 Appendices B and C. CAR Std 625 Appendix C says:

Altimeters and other Altimetry devices installed in aircraft operating under Instrument Flight Rules, or under visual flight rules in Class B and C Airspace or Class C and D Airspace that is designated as ?Transponder Airspace? shall be calibrated at intervals not exceeding 24 months, to the parameters and tolerances outlined in Appendix B of Standard 571, or to equivalent standards acceptable to the Minister.

I had a somewhat similar discussion with Woodlawn Instruments in Ottawa. I took my non-TSO'd altimeter there for a check before first flight, as I want to be able to fly VFR in Transponder Airspace during the test phase. At first, they didn't want to touch it. Then I told them that I didn't need them to certify it - all I needed was a test report that documented the results of their bench tests - I didn't need them to put their official stamp on the test report if they didn't want to. Then, I compared the results of their bench tests to the official pass-fail criteria in Appendix B of Standard 571, and once I was satisfied that the altimeter had passed, I attached a copy of the test report in the logbook, and made a logbook entry something like "I certify that the altimeter has been calibrated to the parametres and tolerances outlined in CAR Std 571 Appendix B". I also made a logbook entry documenting the static system leak check I did after I reinstalled the altimeter and altitude encoder.

You are the one who has the responsibility to determine whether the altimeter complies with the requirements or not. The avionics shop is simply providing you test data to help you make that determination.

[JetA4GA]

I don'y want to add confusion, but the IFR Ops Rule CAR 605.18 (a) and (b) refer to CAR 605.16 (1) where sub-paragraph (b) says : "a sensitive altimeter adjustable for barometric pressure".

Many moons ago when I was involved with TCCA on an encoding altimeter issue, I did receive from HQ a ruling where "sensitive altimeter" mean't an altimeter complying to TSO c10b or equivalent.

As far as I can read it, CAR 605 makes no refrence to the nature of your Flight Authority. Therefore, my understanding is that unless exempted under 5.9 (2) of the Aeronautics Act an Experimental a/c needs to comply with CAR 605.16 and CAR 605.18 though it may not have to have parts or their installation certified other than iaw the provisions of CAR 571 and other referenced regulations.

No matter the above, anyone will agree that it is proper airmanship to have the systems that provide the required IFR separation with other a/c, poeple or property in compliance and maintained iaw the relevant regulations and standards (note that the regulator doesn't care about the way you choose to go, but you can't choose for the others !).

[Steve Brown]

The guy who sold me my 9A ran into the same problem. They refused to do the cert on a non TSO altimeter so he had to buy one. He was in a time jam because we were closing the sale so he couldn't shop around.

Its BS, but the IFR cert forces you to do what they say if you want it from them.

I'm going to look around for a shop that doesn't require that for the next one

By the way, the EAA seems very clear that NOTSO equipment is required for experimentals whether VFR or IFR