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  #1  
Old 05-30-2008, 09:09 AM
cjensen's Avatar
cjensen cjensen is offline
 
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Location: Milwaukee, WI area
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Default Could we get an HONEST weight comparison database going?

It's one of those things...not really a "Never Ending Debate", we know MOST alternatives are heavier, it's more of a need for factual information.

What I'm thinking is, if I could ask those that are able to do so to weigh each piece as it goes on, then add up the numbers. This will take a while, I'm sure, but I think it's a good idea to get a database put together to be able to compare REAL installed weights of traditional and alternative engines. I plan to do this as I go along anyway, so I'll have my number at the end, but what about yours?

We've all seen the numbers for dry weights on most engines out there, and a LOT of speculation on what the final installed weight is with all fluids and hoses, but there is nothing out there that I can find that shows actual INSTALLED weight. Of course every single one will vary, and that's what I'm really interested in. I want to see what the difference is between an installed O-320 to an IO-360-A1B6D angle valve to an RWS 13B to a Chevy V6 and so on.

No need to debate really, just post some real numbers...
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  #2  
Old 05-30-2008, 12:35 PM
rtry9a rtry9a is offline
 
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Location: Bountiful, Utah
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Default

Great idea, and it will be difficult to get data. The final flight weight might help to some extent, but it obscures details where real planning and comparison of parts and systems are needed.

To pull it off, every part will probably have to be cataloged and weighed separately much like Tracy Crook posted in with his early model 13B installation on his RV4. There will be a lot of variability in engine mounts, manifolds, pipes/mufflers, hoses and liquids, radiators, redrives, props, paint, upholstery, instrumentation, and radio(s) used.

One of my "concerns" with past reporting of comparative engine weights (and costs, btw) is that Lycomming leaves a bunch of parts off of their engines which have to added later- I wonder how many include those added parts in the baseline.
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  #3  
Old 05-30-2008, 01:32 PM
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rv6ejguy rv6ejguy is offline
 
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Location: Calgary, Canada
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Default

Once planes are done, few will be dismantling to get component weights but for those in process, this would be great to get numbers before you assemble everything.

In the meantime, there is nothing like all up empty weight for a general comparison. Please do this with paint, pants, fairings, interior, ELT, oil, coolant etc.- everything in the plane the way you fly it.

As a data point, my 6A weighed 1130 as above when first completed. It has grown to a staggering 1176 now. I think I will be able to get this back down to about 1140 when I ditch the multiple rads. I've got a heavy steam gauge panel, twin comms, lots 'o paint, full interior, soundproofing, backup battery, ELT and a few pounds of extra R&D wiring. No lights or strobes however.

Weight growth was mainly from more rads and coolant volume, the second battery, turbo scavenge pump, larger turbo compressor and some cowling reapirs and mods.

I do have component weights for my EG33 turbo so far so I should be able to come up with that figure. We do have to add rad, duct and coolant weights to those too.
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Last edited by rv6ejguy : 05-30-2008 at 01:35 PM.
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  #4  
Old 05-30-2008, 01:49 PM
David-aviator David-aviator is offline
 
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"Dan's RV Project" has lots of numbers, broken down by engine, RV model and prop. It is as good a place as any to make comparisons give or take a bit considering there are liars in the world on this subject.

http://www.rvproject.com/wab/

I am regressing. Burt Rutan always said if you throw it up and comes back down, it is too heavy to be in an airplane. I'd like to strip mine down and do it over with that premise in mind. There is nothing like a light weight airplane....as opposed to a bloated version of the same model.

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  #5  
Old 05-30-2008, 03:09 PM
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cjensen cjensen is offline
 
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Well...this thread is already creeping from what I hoped it would be.

I think most everyone knows about the WAB page on Dan's site. I DON'T want to do another empty weight thread. All up empty weights are certainly valuable, but not what I was thinking for this.

JUST FWF for those that are still in the construction phase is what I'm really interested in.

Of course there will be all kinds of variance in components, but that's the point...
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  #6  
Old 05-30-2008, 04:22 PM
Rotary10-RV Rotary10-RV is offline
 
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Location: Central California
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Default 20B FWR Weight

Quote:
Originally Posted by cjensen View Post
Well...this thread is already creeping from what I hoped it would be.

I think most everyone knows about the WAB page on Dan's site. I DON'T want to do another empty weight thread. All up empty weights are certainly valuable, but not what I was thinking for this.

JUST FWF for those that are still in the construction phase is what I'm really interested in.

Of course there will be all kinds of variance in components, but that's the point...
Chad,
One of the best alternative weights I have seen was for the Rotary 20B in Al Gitezen's Velocity. He dynoed the engine prior to install so he had all the parts in place and was able to weigh them before install. IIRC He said the dry engine/psru/prop was 439 pounds and with all fluids 490 ready to rock and roll. He had a large sump with lots of oil so his fluids added a lot. He is using Tracy's PSRU and a Catto prop. Dyno results were 289 HP at 6800 rpm normally aspirated. I was particularly interested since I'm putting a 20B 3 rotor in my RV-10. That compares favorably with a IO540 producing 260 HP at slightly over 500 pounds installed weight, actually probably more as Lycoming says 505 pounds on the web site, and that is without a prop.
Bill Jepson
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  #7  
Old 05-30-2008, 04:55 PM
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cjensen cjensen is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotary10-RV View Post
IIRC He said the dry engine/psru/prop was 439 pounds and with all fluids 490 ready to rock and roll. He had a large sump with lots of oil so his fluids added a lot. He is using Tracy's PSRU and a Catto prop.
Now THIS is the type of info I want for my spreadsheet! Thanks Bill!
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  #8  
Old 05-30-2008, 05:00 PM
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leeschaumberg leeschaumberg is offline
 
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Post Honest Weights

Because there are so many differant engine lovers out there weights vary. The one that builds with the ( ) engine says it is so good and light. Because nobody confirms this we can only guess. Lycoming employees go to work with only one thing in mind. Build a better AIRCRAFT engine. The automobile employee has only one thing in mind. Build a better car engine.
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  #9  
Old 05-30-2008, 05:04 PM
dav1111 dav1111 is offline
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Default Engine Weights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotary10-RV View Post
Chad,
One of the best alternative weights I have seen was for the Rotary 20B in Al Gitezen's Velocity. He dynoed the engine prior to install so he had all the parts in place and was able to weigh them before install. IIRC He said the dry engine/psru/prop was 439 pounds and with all fluids 490 ready to rock and roll. He had a large sump with lots of oil so his fluids added a lot. He is using Tracy's PSRU and a Catto prop. Dyno results were 289 HP at 6800 rpm normally aspirated. I was particularly interested since I'm putting a 20B 3 rotor in my RV-10. That compares favorably with a IO540 producing 260 HP at slightly over 500 pounds installed weight, actually probably more as Lycoming says 505 pounds on the web site, and that is without a prop.
Bill Jepson
Dear Bill:

I was surprised by the 500/505 lb weight of an IO-540 260HP engine. Based on my research from two different sources it looks more like 395/402 lbs is the range. I great source to look at is at:

http://www.epi-eng.com/aircraft_engi...iderations.htm

That being said, my buddy is building an RV-10 with a 3 rotor and it will probably come in a little below the numbers for my RV-10 with an IO-540C4B5 and and MT Prop. If his nose wheel weight is a lot less than the norm he may need to add some weight up front to be within a good CG but until he gets to that stage we realy won't know.
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  #10  
Old 05-30-2008, 05:09 PM
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cjensen cjensen is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leeschaumberg View Post
Because there are so many differant engine lovers out there weights vary. The one that builds with the ( ) engine says it is so good and light. Because nobody confirms this we can only guess.
That's the freakin' point of this thread...

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeschaumberg View Post
Lycoming employees go to work with only one thing in mind. Build a better AIRCRAFT engine. The automobile employee has only one thing in mind. Build a better car engine.
WHY DO WE INSIST ON DOING THIS TO THREADS THAT ARE ASKING FOR INFO ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DO YOU HAVE AN INSTALLED WEIGHT FOR YOUR ENGINE? NO? DON'T POST IN THIS THREAD...

I DON'T CARE IF SOMEONE SAYS THEIR ENGINE IS BETTER OR LIGHTER. ALL I WANT TO GATHER ARE WEIGHTS. SIMPLE.

I DON'T CARE WHAT THE LYCOMING EMPLOYEE IS THINKING, AND I DON'T CARE WHAT THE AUTOMOBILE EMPLOYEE IS THINKING.

THIS THREAD ISN'T EVEN A PAGE LONG, AND IT HAS TO SHIFT TO A DEBATE.

I'LL SAY IT ONE MORE TIME...ENGINE WEIGHTS IS ALL I WANT INFO ON.

May be too much to ask I suppose...
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