Mistral proceeds toward certification

[rtry9a]

My 2cents about the Mistral- that intake manifold is a thing of beauty and Im jealous. Other than that, the package is overpriced just like Lycomings and Eggs, imho. I couldn't care less if it (or any other engine for that matter) is certified or not when the certification is not required and it only jacks up my price.

As nice as the engine package is, it doesn't really offer anything special beyond the basic Mazda setups available for a small fraction of the price these days- thanks to Tracy Crook and others who have produced bolt-on parts and figured out the bugs for the rest of us.

[Rotary10-RV]

Originally Posted by rtry9a

My 2cents about the Mistral- that intake manifold is a thing of beauty and Im jealous. Other than that, the package is overpriced just like Lycomings and Eggs, imho. I couldn't care less if it (or any other engine for that matter) is certified or not when the certification is not required and it only jacks up my price.

As nice as the engine package is, it doesn't really offer anything special beyond the basic Mazda setups available for a small fraction of the price these days- thanks to Tracy Crook and others who have produced bolt-on parts and figured out the bugs for the rest of us.

The one BIG difference is that the PSRU is designed for use with a HYD/CS from the start. That is a big deal if your building something like a RV-10 where the load will vary tremendously. Not so important in a RV-6 or 7 where a fixed pitch will work fine. The purchase price includes a extensive Fadec system with full redundancy, and the rear plate includes a parafocal mt and pads for alternator, (spare), and a prop governor drive is built in. If you want to build cheaply there is nothing wrong with doing it yourself. Tracy's drive and PSRU are much cheaper, so if you are capable by all means, do it yourself. I will be! I may buy Mistrals PSRU though because my RV-10 will perform much better heavily loaded with a constant speed. The Mistral PSRU is costly, around 7K which is twice what I paid for my engine, a 20B 3 rotor, but I'll save half of that by not needing to buy a super expensive electric cs prop. If you don't have the engineering know how though and still want something different it is a good way to get a finished engine package. Mistral has been very friendly with the homebuilt community and has been willing to sell parts to homebuilders, which certainly helps me out. I could probably even design a good PSRU myself, (I a mechanical engineer), but I'd spend more than that by far before finishing a 1 off design. FWIW
Bill Jepson

[rtry9a]

Bill, Any reason why you are not going to use the 3-blade IVO Magnum air adjustable? It seems to work as well as the MT and is much cheaper and not affected by ridiculous exchange rates these days. Just needs a larger spinner.

[Rotary10-RV]

Originally Posted by rtry9a

Bill, Any reason why you are not going to use the 3-blade IVO Magnum air adjustable? It seems to work as well as the MT and is much cheaper and not affected by ridiculous exchange rates these days. Just needs a larger spinner.

I'm not a great fan of the IVO prop. I don't like the way they twist rather than rotate the blade. I am not claiming there is anything wrong, just not what I favor. I am also influenced by a guy I worked with that was too ham handed and cracked something and threw a blade while I was watching. Totally his fault, but bad mojo anyway. I believe you also have your choice of used props if you can use a hyd/cs. I also may want to tweek the 20B later, and Tracys drive is going to be working pretty hard in the 300 HP range.
Bill Jepson

[SvingenB]

Originally Posted by Rotary10-RV

The one BIG difference is that the PSRU is designed for use with a HYD/CS from the start. That is a big deal if your building something like a RV-10 where the load will vary tremendously. Not so important in a RV-6 or 7 where a fixed pitch will work fine. The purchase price includes a extensive Fadec system with full redundancy, and the rear plate includes a parafocal mt and pads for alternator, (spare), and a prop governor drive is built in. If you want to build cheaply there is nothing wrong with doing it yourself. Tracy's drive and PSRU are much cheaper, so if you are capable by all means, do it yourself. I will be! I may buy Mistrals PSRU though because my RV-10 will perform much better heavily loaded with a constant speed. The Mistral PSRU is costly, around 7K which is twice what I paid for my engine, a 20B 3 rotor, but I'll save half of that by not needing to buy a super expensive electric cs prop. If you don't have the engineering know how though and still want something different it is a good way to get a finished engine package. Mistral has been very friendly with the homebuilt community and has been willing to sell parts to homebuilders, which certainly helps me out. I could probably even design a good PSRU myself, (I a mechanical engineer), but I'd spend more than that by far before finishing a 1 off design. FWIW
Bill Jepson

What are the prices for the vareous Mistrals?

[Rotary10-RV]

Originally Posted by SvingenB

What are the prices for the vareous Mistrals?

They aren't listing the latest prices, but they were running just under a Lyc of the same power ie the G200 (200HP 2 rotor) was running mid-high twenty Ks. (New to new parts) Full airplane prices, to be sure. The web site is www.mistral-engines.com they are requesting an e-mail to put out the prices. I'll try e-mailing Francois and see if he'll publish. FWIW these guys have never claimed they would be cheap. They are pushing toward a finished product without a lot of tall tales. They aren't twisting up an engine to get big numbers. They are looking for something more permanent that that. I sent an e-mail to the web site and hopefully they will get back to me as soon as possible.


Bill Jepson

[SvingenB]

I saw the site, but couldn't find any prices. I looked at the dimensions, and the G-190 should fit in an RV-4 engine mount. They are using standard dynafocal mounts as I understand. The difference is that it will be longer than a 320/360, this could cause problems with COG and possibly also some structural issues. But maybe the COG of the engine is roughfly the same as a Lyc, then this will be no issue at all.

The good points with this engine in my opinion:
* It will look cool in a -4
* Water cooled
* Lots of power
* Probably high quality (but uncertain with very few, only one? flying)
* No issues whatsoever using mogas
* Better cruising performance ??
* Less vibrations
* Geneve is much closer than Seattle (or wherever the Lyc clones are made).

[gmcjetpilot]

Originally Posted by SvingenB

What are the prices for the various Mistrals?

They had prices and delivery dates four years ago, but they took that and performance data down? Humm

I recall their entry level engine, with the claimed 190HP, atmo engine, was about $31k. That is sans engine mount, radiator, prop and other goodies. Just write them. I recall someone just wanted the PSRU and it was about $6k to $7k!? They really did not want to support the experimental market I also recall, going for the certification market, at least at the time. It seems that is still the plan.

[Rotary10-RV]

Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot

They had prices and delivery dates four years ago, but they took that and performance data down? Humm

I recall their entry level engine, with the claimed 190HP, atmo engine, was about $31k. That is sans engine mount, radiator, prop and other goodies. Just write them. I recall someone just wanted the PSRU and it was about $6k to $7k!? They really did not want to support the experimental market I also recall, going for the certification market, at least at the time. It seems that is still the plan.

George,
I would say that you have their ORIGINAL business plan nailed. Mistral had a re-think after they started an e-mail forum through the ACRE newsletter. They found that there would be many takers for parts to start with, but not as many for complete engines. Their prices are high, but they are really doing the research rather than a cut and try operation. The PSRU is at least 7K right now. That sounds super expensive, but there are several things to remember about it. The unit is designed to run hydraulic constant speed propellers from the start. The nose of the gearbox has a built in drive for a governor. (for a hyd/cs) All the internals of the Mistral PSRU are purpose built as a continuous duty aircraft PSRU, and the entire gearset is custom straight spur gearing for low losses. The entire case is a magnesium casting to save weight. I looked at it honestly and now think that the Mistral PSRU at $7000 may be the best buy a rotary engine experimenter might get.
They have been willing to sell parts to the homebuilder. That was a major change in their thinking a while back. There are several builders on the rotary newsletter that have purchased their parts and they say that they are things of beauty. They also say that they look good enough that they can ALMOST forget the hole they left in their wallets
Bill Jepson

[SvingenB]

I got a reply from Mistral today. An experimental G-200 (there will be no more G-190) costs 27,200 ? with a delivery time of 3 to 6 months. A certified version will be available next summer at earliest.

27,200 ? is exactly twice as much as a Mattituck IO 360 at 180 HP (22,200 US$), even more than a 200 HP 360. I guess this answers all my questions