Toolkits... Im torn between two...

[danielhv]

Ok, so Im saving up for a toolkit... I was pretty much set on the Avery toolkit, but now Im kinda being swayed towards the one over at Isham (plane tools) simply because it comes with a penumatic squeezer and the DRDT-2 for only $200 more... Am I missng something here? I was leaning towards Avery because they are local, thus I could eliminate shipping costs... But now I'm just confused.

A few other questions:

Anybody have experience with the tools either provide?

Any tools that should be left out of the kits?

Anybody have any experience with the "lifetime warranty" Isham offers?

[flytoboat]

Daniel,
I don't think you can go wrong with either tool kit. I was in your same place 4 months ago. Finally decided to go with Isham's kit for the pneumatic squeezer and DRDT-2. No regrets. Shaun added some freebies when I called to make the order
I deleted the bucking bars from the kit and then ordered a tungsten bar from buckingbars.net. Of course no kit is really complete, so I'm still ordering moore tools as I go.

[rleffler]

Originally Posted by danielhv

Anybody have experience with the tools either provide?

Any tools that should be left out of the kits?

Anybody have any experience with the "lifetime warranty" Isham offers?

I was the same place as you a little over a year ago. I won't elaborate all the reasons I chose Avery's, but that is what I would recommend especially since you are local to Bob. I've spent several sessions with Bob on the phone getting some mentoring on how to use my tools more effectively, when I thought I had a problem. Being able to talk to him face to face on any issues, would be invaluable. I'm not saying that you won't get the same outstanding service from others, but I have a preference for doing what I ever I can to support local vendors. Got talk to Bob in person before you make your decision.

There are no correct answer to your questions, just different opinions. The following is a repost off something I posted to the Matronics RV-10 forum last week. It was in response to some similiar questions about tool substitution, oops rivets, and buying some items from Harbor Freight.

I purchased the Avery kit myself, but substituted quite a few items.

I didn't get a hand squeezer, but did get a pneumatic from Avery w/ 3", longeron, and 4" no hole. I've been told that there will be times I need a hand squeezer, but I haven't run across that time yet. I figured I could always buy the hand squeezer later. The no hole allows you to get into places in which you can't if you had a standard die installed. I consider these three the minimum types of yokes you'll need. There have been times that I could have used another yoke, but I ended up setting those rivets using a gun.

On recommendation from an A&P friend, I purchased the squeezer and dimple dies from Cleaveland. He was of the opinion that they were better than Avery's. I can't substantiate that claim, since I haven't used Avery's.

I have purchased about 100 more #40 silver #40 clecos above what Avery recommended for the RV-10. Working on the empennage, it seemed that I never had enough.

I did upgrade the rivet gun to a Sioux 3x. I had a chance to play with the Avery gun beforehand. The Avery gun works just fine, but the Sioux gun has much better trigger control.

I also got a Chicago Pneumatic drill from Brown. Again, I liked how the drill performed better and had a chance to play with both drills prior to ordering.

I've had mixed results with both Cleaveland and Avery edge flanging tool. I've had more success with recently with Cleaveland's.

I did purchase an Avery pistol grip pneumatic pistol grip cleco gun. Definitely not a requirement, but clearly made inserting and removing large amounts of cleco's much easier.

Yes, you'll need a torque wrench. I got the nice electronic version CDI/Snap-On) from Cleaveland. I have had problems with the clicker versions before, which is clearly a personal issue for me and you may not experience the same. It's nice to hear the buzzer, especially when you can't see the wrench.

Also, get a tungsten bucking bar. I use this bar 99.9% of the same. It's smaller, heavier, and much easier to use.

I also got a DRDT-2 instead of a C-Frame. It's quite a bit easier to use and much quieter. My wife and daughter have used it and probably wouldn't have touched a c-frame. That alone is enough to justify the upgrade to me.

I highly recommend the quick disconnect kit for the drill from Cleaveland. I did most of the empennage before I got this. I got tired of constantly changing drill bits. Now I can change bits in a couple seconds.

Reamers will yield a much cleaner hole that a drill bit. I use a reamer whenever I can. I have #30, #40, and #41.

I got my safety wire twisters from Harbor Freight. I don't think there is much difference here. I wouldn't get the torque wrench from HF.

Yes, you will most likely need oops rivets. None of us are perfect.

With all this said, the plain Avery and Cleaveland tool kits will work just fine. As you can see, I've made many upgrades that do cost more. They've made my life easier by either reducing work effort or by providing me greater control of the tool. This is going to be a highly personal decision. To me, there was enough value added, that I was willing to spend the extra dollars.

Enough ramblings for today. If you have an specific questions about the upgrades, please contact me offline.

[SvingenB]

I got the toolkit from Avery, with the standard parts. A professional aircraft mechanic tried the rivet gun. He said it was better than his, an Atlas Copco or something at 5 times the cost. I tried the C frame this weekend on the rudder. I found it easy to work with and the result is perfect with Avery dimples. I made a wooden floor on the c frame, so I can handle large skins alone without damaging anything (I guess the frame also can be mounted beneith a table).

I ordered a bunch of drills and reamers from Aircraft tools supply. I use reamers only for bolts. Reaming rivet holes is a redundant operation because rivets expand.

It seems to me that all the kits are more than good enough for the average homebuilder, but none of them are complete, you will need lots of extra.

[Fearless]

Whoevers kit you get you might want to think about doubling or tripling the number of 3/32 #40 and 1/8 #30 clecos that come with it. When you get into doing the wings and fuselage you will find that there are alot of rivets. I imagine that someone could get by with what comes with the kits but I think the majority of builders end up buying more. I know I did and wish I still had more. You could always sell them to a new builder down the road or hang on to them for the next build

[PaigeHoffart]

For me looking back at my tool purchases there are two issues: quality and contents. I bought all of my tools piecemeal from Cleveland, Avery, Brown, and the Yard Store. I don't think you'll have issues with quality from any of them. I don't have any experience with Plane Tools, but looking at the contents of the kits, it all looks like quality material. In my experience, US Tool and USATCO fall somewhere between the quality suppliers and Harbor Freight.

Now for the kit contents... Avery has lots of experience with RVs, if it's in the kit, you probably are going to need it. Here are some differences I found between the two (I'm sure I missed something):



For the record, I bought a pneumatic squeezer and I've never regretted it (I do occasionally use my TATCO hand squeezer though). If a DRDT 2 was available when I started, I probably would have purchased one. The VIXON file is great for taking lots of aluminum off in a hurry when you're shaping pieces of aluminum extrusion. I have a little angle grinder that I use with 2" blue scotch brite pads; it's awesome for deburring. I didn't really need the angle drill until I got to the fuselage. The swivel flush rivet head keeps the inexperienced riveter from putting big smiles in your metal. Basically, Avery's kit has an RV flavor, Plane Tools looks a little more generic.

YMMV,
Paige
RV-8A

[dhusk]

I bought from Isam about 18 months ago. I've been very happy with all the tools. We are working on the finishing kit now, so we've used them all at this point. I haven't had a problem with any of the tools.

I'm sure you would be happy with Avery as well. I have bought other products from them and they are top notch.

The DRDT2 that comes with the Isham kit was a big factor in my decision.

You can't lose, either way.

[Greg Arehart]

I went with Isham because of the DRDT and squeezer. A bit more cost, but I have been glad to have both of these extra tools. I'm sure Avery would be as good in terms of service/quality etc. As noted, you will undoubtedly end up buying more stuff as you progress. My cautionary note is not to buy anything that requires precision from Harbor Freight. I got an extra air drill ($9.95, a bargain) which was totally worthless. I also bought some drill bits and a few other similar tools from HF, and they were worthless as well. Hammers and similar stuff from HF you probably can't go wrong, but the other stuff I would be cautious of.

my 25c (adjusted for inflation)
greg

[ao.frog]

I bought the Avery RV tool kit back in 2005, and I've been very pleased with the quality the whole time.

Also, Sandra at their customs support has been VERY helpful and she has been really providing great customer support all the time.

Also, when I started building, she was very patient about answering my zillion stupid questions....
Nice thing to know for a rookie rivet pounder, that there was help around!

Good luck with your building!

[docrick]

I can't imagine doing without the pneumatic squeezer. I can't imagine dimpling without the DRDT-2. Smacking a dimpler with a hammer seems to invite making a hole where a hole isn't wanted.

That said, I 've had to purchase for convenience a number of tools not included in Ishams kit.

I've purchased a "no hole" yoke and longeron yoke for the pneumatic squeezer and can't see how I can do without them.

I purchased vise grip dimplers (try to dimple the trailing edge of the elevators following instructions in Vans kit with a C frame or DRDT-2)

I'm sure I'll be adding more tools as I proceed. I'm almost completed the entire empennage so when the wings arrive we'll see what more I "need".