Experimentals for compensation

mdredmond · #1 03-19-2008, 03:28 PM

Moderator note. New thread started. Was getting away from the original thread topic.

Quote:

OK, but remember that this is the RV forum and I will make the assumption that most of us are here because we fly airplanes on an experimental certificate. FAR 91.319 is very clear on "compensation or hire."

Well that was sort of my point. By registering your plane in the name of a corporation (as was suggested by several in this thread), you are inadvertently making every flight "for compensation or hire".

az_gila · #2 03-19-2008, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kahuna

You can be for compensation and for hire in an experimental. You just cant fly persons and property for it.
You can fly your experimental and get paid for it. I asked EAA about it sometime ago and got a position on it. Mine was for operating at an air show for hire in my RV, which can be done. I could fly gas lines, or be paid as an aerial photographer as an example also. All of which might lend it self to being incorporated for liability reasons. SO its not as clear as you might think on the surface. THere are quite a few examples you could muster that would muddy the waters.

Kuhana..... how does that jibe with this bit of the FARs?

§ 91.319 Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.

(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate—
(1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued; or
(2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.

I would have thought that our particular Experimental Airworthiness certificates are issued for "Recreation and Education"...
Sort of violating 91.319-a(1) ... is that not the case?

If that is not the case... what purpose are our Experimental certificates issued for?

gil A

PS ... I would have thought that the getting paid for an air show would need an "Experimental - Exhibition and Racing" certificate, just like my sailplane... but I read the text too simply sometimes....

roadrunner20 · #3 03-19-2008, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by az_gila

Kuhana..... how does that jibe with this bit of the FARs?

? 91.319 Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.

(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate?
(1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued; or
(2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.

I would have thought that our particular Experimental Airworthiness certificates are issued for "Recreation and Education"...
Sort of violating 91.319-a(1) ... is that not the case?

If that is not the case... what purpose are our Experimental certificates issued for?

gil A

PS ... I would have thought that the getting paid for an air show would need an "Experimental - Exhibition and Racing" certificate, just like my sailplane... but I read the text too simply sometimes....

What about RV transition training?

Kahuna · #4 03-19-2008, 07:28 PM

IF your not carrying persons or property for hire, your not violating the rule.
I can get paid to test fly an experimental for example. I do that quite often.

You CAN BE FORE HIRE.
I was asked, for example, to haul cancelled bank checks one time to NC. I declined as that would violate the comp for property rule.

Make sense?

I found the email from EAA, which is not the FAA mind you, but it was good enough for me.
========================
Hello Mike,

You are correct on both counts. So long as you do not carry anyone or anything for compensation or hire, there?s no problem using a homebuilt in the manner you suggest. Many aircraft that perform in airshows are certificated as amateur-built. So long as you do not carry anyone or anything for compensation you?re OK.

Same with being paid to flight-test. You are not carrying anyone else, so there?s no problem with the operating limitations.

You?re good to go!

Joe Norris
EAA 113615 Lifetime
Senior Aviation Specialist
EAA Aviation Services
============================

Best,

roadrunner20 · #5 03-19-2008, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kahuna

IF your not carrying persons or property for hire, your not violating the rule.
I can get paid to test fly an experimental for example. I do that quite often.

You CAN BE FORE HIRE.
I was asked, for example, to haul cancelled bank checks one time to NC. I declined as that would violate the comp for property rule.

Make sense?

I agree with your assessment.

Kahuna · #6 03-19-2008, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanLandry

What about RV transition training?

They carry a special FAA waiver to do this.

Kahuna · #7 03-19-2008, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by az_gila

Kuhana..... how does that jibe with this bit of the FARs?
I would have thought that our particular Experimental Airworthiness certificates are issued for "Recreation and Education"...
Sort of violating 91.319-a(1) ... is that not the case?

If that is not the case... what purpose are our Experimental certificates issued for?

gil A

PS ... I would have thought that the getting paid for an air show would need an "Experimental - Exhibition and Racing" certificate, just like my sailplane... but I read the text too simply sometimes....

Im still recreating and educating while Im getting paid. They are not mutually exclusive. Also a review of the commercial operations in the FARS yields additional information about the FAA's generic positions on commercial operators. Id have to dust off my brain and books to find it and im too lazy tonight.

Kahuna · #8 03-19-2008, 08:08 PM

One last note before I hit the sack on this topic. If there is one thing I have learned about regs, is that there is enough vagueness, interpretation, and conflict, to hang us all. Ive been hung upside down personally by the FAA by regs and I can assure you that any flight you take can be made to violate a reg. The FAA could easily choose to be clear on this stuff, they choose not to for a reason, and one of those is discretion and flexibility.

Whats important here to me id that my experience as a performer at many airshows in many FSDO regions with many different inspectors, NONE has ever been the least bit concerned about op lim violations and being for hire.

I also have no doubt that someone will find an inspector somewhere that will disagree with me.

night yall.

Geico266 · #9 03-19-2008, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kahuna

If there is one thing I have learned about FAA regs, is that there is enough vagueness, interpretation, and conflict, to hang us all. I've been hung upside down personally by the FAA by regs and I can assure you that any flight you take can be made to violate a reg.

Roger that, been there.

n5lp · #10 03-19-2008, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kahuna

...I can assure you that any flight you take can be made to violate a reg...

I have contended this forever.

Only recently I have found it also applies to walking on public land. It is absolutely impossible to do it without breaking some regulation. What all this does is give the enforcer complete discretion on who they want to violate and when they want to do it. I believe a side effect of this is that it takes away the desire to be a rule follower because it is futile anyway.