How do you start your EI engine?

[Dave62]

N941WR...you are scaring the heck out of me....I know nothing about EI but have had personal experience with turning props through by hand.
I knew a person who was killed by a prop and another who was very lucky to only have about 200 stitches.
I dont know the exact sequence you need to go through to get the mags hot....but they can be made hot...and are made hot every flight.
There are more failure modes than just mechanical and electrical. Most of us who have done a gear up landing...and I did say us....had no failure other than the gray thing that is susposed to reside between our ears.
What if you forget to turn off the mag electrical switch when you put the plane up?????and a wire is broken...and...Kids at a fly-in turn on a switch....you get the picture. I guess I am feeling the need to just give out the warning and I dont do that often...do as you please.
Be safe.

Dave62 (Swift driver)

[Stephen Lindberg]

Hey Bill, I'll second Dave62's concern about pulling props through by hand. Geez, I have personally seen the aftermath of many hand propping accidents, including one right in front of my hangar that creamed the airplane next door to me, came full bore right through the locked hanger door! Here is what I do for my PA-12 which has the same engine you have, an 0-290. I start on the left (impulse coupled) mag, full rich, start cranking, and pump the throttle once AS I CRANK. Starts right away. I use this technique summer/winter/day/night except I don't pump the throttle if the engine is warm from a recent shutdown. I have no primer, don't need one. I never move the prop unless a qualified pilot is holding the brakes (test that first, push on the prop hub) or it is impossible for the engine to fire (spark plugs out). My father was nearly whacked pulling a prop through by hand. It wasn't supposed to fire. So was a cropduster buddy of mine, same deal, wasn't supposed to fire. I once knew a guy who had been hit on the head by a prop before I met him. He was a fanatic about props, as you might imagine, and some of that rubbed off me, I guess. Just looking out for you, man, be safe. Steve

[N941WR]

Originally Posted by gasman

So if you had to shut off your master in flight due to panel smoke or other emergency, you would be shutting off part of your ignition?

You can turn the master of in flight and the P-mags will continue to run on internal power. No other action is required. That is the beauty of the things. They have to be grounded to kill them, turning off the master will do nothing. The sequence and comments above are for starting only. The 113's that I have do not self power below around 800 RPM.

Originally Posted by Dave62

N941WR...you are scaring the heck out of me....

Originally Posted by Stephen Lindberg

Hey Bill, I'll second Dave62's concern about pulling props through by hand.

Guys, read the thread. We are talking about electronic ignitions, not magnetos. I described above how and and why the P-mags will not fire when hand propping. Can't happen. Ok, shouldn't happen. Also, I have been trained on the art of hand propping (and hand cranking an old Stearman ), you get that when you fly J-3's, T-Craft's, Champ's, etc. As I said above, I approach all props as if they are loaded guns and could fire at any time. It down right frightens me anytime I see someone just rest a hand on a prop tip... Enough is enough...

Can we get back to the subject at hand?

How do those of you with ELECTRONIC IGNITIONs start your planes?

[Mike S]

Originally Posted by N941WR

As I said above, I approach all props as if they are loaded guns and could fire at any time. It down right frightens me anytime I see someone just rest a hand on a prop tip... Enough is enough...

Can we get back to the subject at hand?

How do those of you with ELECTRONIC IGNITIONs start your planes?

Folks, this is Bills thread, please honor his request----enough about proping, O.K..

Or, start a "Hand Proping" thread.

Please??

[elippse]

My Lancair has an O-235L2C with 9.7:1 pistons, making it basically an O-235 F or G of 125HP. I have dual Plasma Is. I made my own pan from carbon fiber and the carb is on the back of the pan where the triangular pan extension used to be rather than underneath. It feeds into a 90 deg turn into fiberglass induction tubes in the top of the pan that divide in two then each of these divides in two to go to the cylinders. Right above the carb in the 90 I put a fitting that has two small jets that point toward the forward two crotches where the two tubes divide into four. That jet is connected to my primer, so that when I prime, I get two streams of fuel aimed at the crotches which hopefully divides equally into all four tubes. On a cold 40F-50F morning I give it two shots of primer, and give it enough throttle, about an inch, so that it starts running at about 1300 rpm; I also leave the primer open so that it will suck additional fuel through it for the first few seconds, then close it. If it hasn't run for a while I may even give it one or two more primer shots when it first starts, and put the carb heat on. It runs rough at first, I think, because of the fiberglass absorbing the fuel initially. After about 20-30 seconds it is running smoothly and I decrease rpm to about 700-800 and lean the mixture for best rpm. After running the engine for a few minutes, such as taxi-ing over to the fuel pump and gassing up, the engine starts immediately at minimum throttle setting. The same goes for when I fly somewhere and the plane sits for less than an hour; it starts immediately without prime or advancing the throttle. With the Plasmas there is a 2-4 second delay when the engine first starts that occurs when the unit switches from TDC firing to advance firing after the rpm passes 400. This is seen as a noticeable rpm increase.

[videobobk]

One E-Mag, one Slick, hope that qualifies. O-320 w/carb. Below about 20 degrees I pre-heat, although I did start once at 10. Don't think it is especially good on the engine to start it that cold.

Between 20 and 30:
Master on
FP on until the pressure comes up
Electric primer for about 3 seconds.
Wait for 30 seconds-one minute for the fuel to vaporize
One pump of the throttle
Back to "cracked" and start. Another pump while cranking if it doesn't fire in a couple of turns.

Above 30 I just give it one pump and go. Starts right up.

Bob Kelly

[Stephen Lindberg]

Bill and Mike: I don't think your thread has been hijacked. The question asked was how others start their engines. I don't think EI makes any procedural difference and in fact EI should allow your engine to start more easily than one equipped with mags. Bill, you are priming your engine by pulling it through by hand after using the carburetor accelerator pump to shoot fuel into the induction system. I think pulling the prop through by hand is unnecessary and hazardous unless you have a qualified pilot at the controls holding the brakes, and I gave you examples from my personal experience to back that statement up. Why not crank the engine with the electric starter while pumping the throttle, like I do? It works for me and my Slick mags, and has for many years. In any event, your EI engine should be easier to start than mine because your ignition delivers a more energetic spark. Pumping the throttle with the engine at rest allows fuel to run down into the air filter and perhaps into the cowl. If the engine is cranking the flow of induction air will help carry the fuel into the cylinders where it is needed. I think the FAA has an old advisory circular warning of the dangers of cowl and induction fires due to priming in cold weather. The collected fuel in the cowling can be ignited by a backfire, very possible from a lean mixture. I've seen that, too. I think all this is worth pointing out since this thread will be read by pilots with less experience than you or me. I do not share your faith that it is impossible for the EI to malfunction and fire. You probably know this, but some airports have regulations prohibiting pulling an engine through by hand. Sorry if this post seems overly pedantic, but for the sake of safety it needs to be said.
Best wishes for easy starting, Steve

[gmcjetpilot]

Really, I think the answer is you do nothing different. There is no difference between EI and magnetos as far as start procedures, IMHO, with some caveats, in general. To the pilot of a factory plane you turn the key. Many experimentals have separate ignition and start switches, so there is some switch selection choices depending on your set-up.

The stuff about priming, pulling props and throttle stuff is extraneous to the bottom line.

EI should make starting easier. The down side is the electrical power requirement. Magneto's use no outside power (usually). That is the big diff.

All the EI systems I know of: Light Speed, Emag and Electroair, all go to zero degree timing advance during start, which is the advance you must/should have to safely start. You just have to turn the EI on and crank. Once started turn the standard mechanical magneto on. Done!

The EI's I know of, need battery power to get started and continue to run. The exception is the "P-mag" EI, which will continue to run after starting, with out battery power, but it needs juice to get going like all EI's, as far as I know. (Some magnetos use a "vibrator" or "Shower Of Sparks" to get started, which does require battery power. Typical magnetos used on the Lycs we install in RV's don't use shower of spark starting. We have an impulse couple magneto, which is a mechanical method to get a hotter retarded spark for start.)

(Technical content warning! Impulse magnetos have extra features for starting, retarding advance and giving more spark during start only. Most engines have one impulse magneto, the one that goes CLACK! when you pull the engine though. Once started the impulse magneto goes back to being like a regular magneto. With a key ignition switch, the non-impulse magneto is automatically cut out during start. If you tried to start with the non-impulse magneto, you could get big kick-backs because the timing is still at 25 BTDC, or it just won't start. Impulse magnetos do all their start magic mechanically with springs and flyweights. EI do their magic with timing with electronics and sensing RPM and/or MAP.)

If you have one EI and one impulse magneto, you can start with either. However most use the EI to start and using both during start is probably not a good idea, IMHO. Most EI manufacturer's suggest you start on the EI and leave the magneto off. The EI has more spark power and should make starting easier. If you have a dead battery, no electrical power of any kind you could use the impulse magneto to get started. This means a hand prop start, no thanks. I'll hand prop a C65 or C85 on a Cub, but not a high compression bigger displacement Lyc. Just call me chicken. I'm personally afraid of hand prop larger engines. I just avoid it. Some times EI can miss fire during start with low voltage. If that is the case you could use the magneto to get going.

A single EI is usually paired with the impulse magneto. It's an odd ball combo to keep the non-impulse magneto with an EI, but there is nothing stopping you from doing it. If you do this, definitely leave the magneto off for start. Use the EI. Starting with a non impulse magneto can/will cause bad kick-backs, which break things. On the plus side, a non-impulse magnetos are simpler, probably more reliable and lighter than their impulse magneto cousins. The mechanical parts of the "impulse" can bugger up sometimes. The draw back is at times, starting with an EI is NOT desirable, so keep the impulse magneto. (see next par)

There are starting issues with some EI's. EI can miss fire when the voltage gets too low during start. The starter draws the voltage down and the EI fires erratically, which can cause kick backs or difficult starts. This might be a good reason to use the regular impulse magneto if you have one, verse the EI, if you are having this issue. The voltage problem is less likely to happen with a good strong battery and a starter that uses less power. Permanent magnet starters tend be the lower cost units and work OK, but they are also power hogs, which can aggravate the EI starting voltage issue. The new top of the line Skytec starter has much much lower power needs than their original PM unit, which they still sell. The more efficient lower draw starters keeps the voltage up and avoids or minimizes low voltage issues with EI.

If you have two EI, than I guess starting with both ON is the way to go. Or I suppose leaving one off saves some power for cranking the starter. Which one? Top/bottom, left right? It does not matter, but try it, see if there is a difference.

If you have two EI's with a dead battery, you're out of luck. Besides you should NEVER fly with a dead battery you jump or hand prop. It's best to spend 45 minutes and give the battery at least a good 75% partial charge with a 10 amp charger before flying. Using you alternator alone to charge a totally dead battery is a good way to fry the alternator, in my opinion. One observation. a dead battery demands much more power to charge over a longer period after starting. With extra drain charging the battery, added to the normal load, the alternator can overheat. Usually a strong battery recovers fully within minutes after starting and never demands as much as a dead battery.

[Jekyll]

Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot

If you have two EI, than I guess starting with both ON is the way to go. Or I suppose leaving one off saves some power for cranking the starter. Which one? Top/bottom, left right? It does not matter, but try it, see if there is a difference.

George:

Good analysis/write up. Just some added data points on E-mags:

1. The highest power usage during the start cycle is .32 amps each at 200 rpm then it drops to .16 amps per side at 300 rpm then slowly climbs to .31 amps at 1000 rpm. Not much of a concern I would think. If .32 amps interferes with your starter, you likely have bigger fish to fry.

2. E-mag and some others use a wasted spark process which has cause some problems with kick backs. E-mag has built in protection against kick back caused from the power dip resulting from starter in-rush. E-mags have a start circuit which dissables the spark if bus voltage dips (it drops out after start).

3. EI doesn't use much juice. As stated above, you can start with an E-mag with only .32 amps. In a traditional electrical system, as long as you have enough power to close the master contact, you probably have sufficient power to hand prop the engine successfully. If you have an e-bus that bypasses the master contactor, you can hand prop as long as you have enough power to get you the .32 amps at the E-mag. If you are using 1 or 2 P-mags, the engine will continue to run above 850-900 rpm on internal power.

4. E-mag does have a hand prop process but it's slightly more complicated than with traditional mags. You would want to put it on a check list in your POH.

Jekyll

[elippse]

Just recently I had to start my Hi-comp O-235 with a battery run down enough not to turn the engine over. With a friend at the throttle and on the brakes, the engine started immediately, and yes, I have a three-blade prop which didn't bite me. I used to fly J-3s which I hand started myself, and I worked at a seaplane base where I had to start the J-3s, Champs, and Taylorcrafts.The LSE Plasma will supply its high voltage with only 5V or 6V on the buss. It only draws about 200mA each when the engine isn't running. It only takes 6mS to charge up the capacitor so before you turn your start switch the ignition can fire the plugs. If your battery is severely run down, keep the engine rpm low initially after start so as not to charge the battery at too high a current. Run the engine at succeedingly higher rpm while monitoring the charge current. When it has dropped to 5A-10A at the highest static rpm you are probably safe to fly.