EGG Service OK ++

[David-aviator]

Originally Posted by Randy

....Anyway, I had to chime in here to let you all know that another one of the engines from the STI batch is flying, (that makes 2 of us now) and there are more to come. As long as that gear box holds up, I can say I am glad I have the Subaru up front.

Randy C

Actually, Randy, I believe 3 sti's have flown. Your's, Ziggy's and Robert Paisley. Seems to me, it was the sti in Robert's 7 that allowed him to fly just a bit faster than Dan Checkoway. The engine certainly has the potential to produce power as was demonstrated by that flight. It is a credit to you that you have gotten the thing in the air. Same for Ziggy who has been flying much longer. Robert Paisley does not need any kudos, he's on a different planet when it comes to doing this stuff.

All that being said, the sti guys have had major problems and I'm not sure there is much anyone can do about it but press forward. The sti trip was a mistake for the developer and the customer from the git go. The money was spent putting the engines together and there is no way the factory can take them back and make everyone happy. The money is in the engines and like the stock market, real estate and a zillion other investments today, it is gone.

Same applies to GEN1 and GEN2 (which probably are OK for the 2.5 NA engine). A ton of money was lost trying to make the belt drive work for the turbo H6, and then more yet developing GEN3 after that failure.

My gut feeling is GEN3 is still being sold at below cost. The machining of the case is no small item as are labor and the parts to put it together. I am not happy about having to pay for a different PSRU but I do understand the economic realities of the situation. Eggenfellner is not becoming wealthy doing what he does. The last time I visited his little company, he was sleeping in the motor home in the hangar with his dog. He works at least 16 hours a day on his passion and sometimes it is one step forward and two back ward, but generally the movement is forward. Anyone who has not figured that out by now has had his head under a rock.

This is an experimental effort and not for everyone. I continue to believe the engines are solid and there is progress being made solving problems. Abandoning the Van's cowl in favor of one designed to accommodate the cooling system is part of that progress. Sure there are differing opinions about what is best with regard to cooling, but what is happening is definitely an improvement. The ECU is getting more and more simple as is prop control.

Knowing all that I know concerning this effort so far, I would not want a repeat of what's happened. BUT I do feel the product is maturing and those diving in now will have smoother sailing in the future. For those wanting to do something different, it can fun and interesting. And I do love flying behind this engine even though mine a long way from perfect. I do have an affinity for the smooth running Merlins of WWII and this is a lot closer than flying behind the venerable Lycoming.

[Steve A]

Summary - i deeply regret buying Eggenfellner, because of Jan's attitude problems as much as the physical problems, and I certainly can't recommend it to anyone.

Let's be a little fairer here. I followed Brian's website early on as I am building an RV 7A with a H-6 purchased from Jan. At least some of Brian Myette's problems have IMHO come from a "roll-your-own" approach. Brian eschewed the EXP BUS recommended by Eggenfellner to make his own electrical system. He did not follow the factory recommended approach to the waste gate on the STI engine. If you take in the entire website, Brian has run in's with the guy that sold him a metal building, various partners he worked with, an avionic's company, the airport where he wanted to base his plane, all documented on his website.

I know Gary Newsted has visited Brian personally to help work out some of the problems. This was before Gary was associated with Eggenfellner but I think Jan has worked to solve some of the problems but as a small business owner, some people are impossible to please. Going on the internet to vent problems may not be the best way to achieve better service.

The STI is a very challenging application. From the previous posts, there are three flying out of 25 which is better than 10% flying. That is the average of experimental aircraft 1 in 10 flies. I think the builder is the largest factor in any application achieving success. I am reminded by the quote of Bill Romanaski, NFL linebacker with two superbowl rings, who said "when you point a finger, there are three finger pointing back at you".

STeve A
RV 7A H-6
Painting Fairings
Lafayette, La.

[C-GRVT]

One does not need to know Eggenfellner personally or be a customer to form the opinion that people have been very badly dealt with.
I looked at the Eggenfellner "firewall forward" option, attracted by the idea of an elegant alternative to a Lycoming. And that is what the option was presented as - a "firewall forward" bolt-on alternative to the Lycoming.
It is an utterly inadequate response to the problems experienced by Brian and others to say that only one in ten experimental aircraft flies, or that this is an experimental effort and not for everyone. The thing was sold as a firewall forward alternative to a Lycoming at a comparable price. Ten out of ten Lycoming installations fly! How many people would have written that cheque if they had known that only "one in ten" would be flying and that after years of work and modifications? Some certainly, but certainly not those who were sold Eggenfellner (or like me considered it) as a "firewall forward" install option to a Lycoming.
I hope Brian and others in his boat have the will and ability to recover from this disaster and realize the completion of their aircraft.
Bill Brooks
Ottawa, Canada
RV-6A slow-build with a Lycoming clone

[Rotary10-RV]

Originally Posted by C-GRVT

One does not need to know Eggenfellner personally or be a customer to form the opinion that people have been very badly dealt with.
I looked at the Eggenfellner "firewall forward" option, attracted by the idea of an elegant alternative to a Lycoming. And that is what the option was presented as - a "firewall forward" bolt-on alternative to the Lycoming.
It is an utterly inadequate response to the problems experienced by Brian and others to say that only one in ten experimental aircraft flies, or that this is an experimental effort and not for everyone. The thing was sold as a firewall forward alternative to a Lycoming at a comparable price. Ten out of ten Lycoming installations fly! How many people would have written that cheque if they had known that only "one in ten" would be flying and that after years of work and modifications? Some certainly, but certainly not those who were sold Eggenfellner (or like me considered it) as a "firewall forward" install option to a Lycoming.
I hope Brian and others in his boat have the will and ability to recover from this disaster and realize the completion of their aircraft.
Bill Brooks
Ottawa, Canada
RV-6A slow-build with a Lycoming clone

Bill you should be aware that by far the greatest number of Eggenfellners customers is HAPPY with their package. The STI engine was a problem for our type of use, and it is sad that there have been problems, that doesn't mean that every one of them might not eventually fly. I have worked on RVs with Egg engines and with certified engines and my opinion is that the Egg package is MORE complete than the typical certified package. You can buy a FWF package from Vans that includes wiring and plumbing, but you have to pay for it. There are more things available for a Lyc too as would be EXPECTED. A good friend recently flew his 2.5 Egg Subaru RV-9 and he is very happy with it. Any time you deviate from standard you must be ready to do some work to make the different combination work, be it a certified engine or a conversion. If you wanted to put a Continential IO-360 in your RV for instance you would be completely on your own, and would have to make far more parts yourself than an Eggenfellner customer. That is on a CERTIFIED engine. If you make a change of any kind you must be ready to do some of the work yourself. The STI contingent at Eggenfellner were generally beating down the door to get that engine. That doesn't excuse any poor after the sale service on Jans part but it does explain some of the problems. These guys KNEW they were the bleeding edge first experimental examples. When the configuration didn't work well Egg stopped selling it, as they should have. The total sales of the STI is less than 4% of the EGG sales! This isn't like NSI where ALL the customers had problems. Or Innodyne where only one ever flew! There are lots of happy Egg customers. If you bought that Conti IO-360 and asked the distributor to take it back they would laugh in your face. I find it sad that people that get into a tough position because they made a choice then want everything made good by someone who didn't promise that to begin with. Let's state this plainly: If you are not capable of doing anything but following the instructions in the kit, that is you aren't an engineer, or designer, or at least a good mechanic you should not use ANY engine other than that recomended by the kit manufacturer, period. The claim made by ANY manufacturer including Vans that you can build a flying airplane is just that. Just because you can build one from the supplied materials doesn't mean you will, you have to make that happen yourself. The comment that you quoted is TRUE, about 1 in 10 kits ever flies. That is reguardless of the engine chosen. The claim of a FWF system doesn't make it a silver bullet, it won't install itself. I truly hope your own install is easy and you enjoy flying your Lyc powered plane. That is really why were doing this after all. Many Eggenfellner customers are doing the same thing!
Bill Jepson

[mrblob]

I'm sure I'll be flamed for this, but a lot of y'all need to calm down. Especially those who have never dealt with Jan or his company.

I have an H-6 on the front of my -7. The installation was as advertised. I hung the thing in one evening, and had no trouble following the step by step guide to complete the electrical and plumbing. First engine start was as easy and smooth as starting my car. At this point, the cooling solution is well documented on the yahoo group and couldn't possibly be any more difficult than getting baffles right. While there were some delays getting the Gen 3 gearbox delivered, I'm not about to complain about it... I've been building for 6 years, I'm not in a hurry. More importantly, every time I've had a question or concern, I've received a personal response either by email or phone very promptly. I'm a very satisfied Eggenfellner customer.

Paul

[Ironflight]

Folks, this is a tough thread for a moderator. On the one hand, people are expressing their honest opinions and (I believe) experiences. On the other hand, there is an awful lot of vitriol being expended. There is a rule against vendor bashing on the forums (which does not, I believe, mean that no bad thing can ever be expressed, or many, many threads would have been killed that have been allowed to continue), and unfortunately, this one has gone beyond simply bashing a vendor, it is personally bashing a man.

I have no dog whatsoever in this fight - I am a plain-jane Lyclone guy. I can tell from the comments here, and the many other notes I have read over the past several years that people are either hot or cold on Jan. And I completely believe both the bad and the good. I was impressed several weeks ago when the man signed on to the forums and was willing to post some in person. If I were him, after reading this thread, I'd never step foot on VAF again - which is too bad. I believe that we all have lessons to learn from both successes and failures.

This thread was started as a compliment to a good job, and that voice has been pretty much shouted down by opposing views. I see little else to gain by keeping it open except for those who wish to pile on, so I am going to close it. If someone thinks that they have something new and original to contribute, they can always write a moderator and see if they can convince someone that it is an appropriate addition to the common knowledge - but I think the appropriate testimonies - on both sides - are now out there.

Paul