Buying an RV??

[AndyRV7]

I was wondering if you guys could tell me about buying a flying RV. Like most aspiring pilots, I want to own my own plane. I am not living anywhere I can think about a build right now, and I can't wait 3-4 years to get to fly it (or some plane, anyway). My flight school is already admitting that I will NEVER be able to rent a plane on a weekend, and clubs in my area seem to be not much better. So the hours I hoped to log next year seem like they will be a lot fewer, and on weekdays only.

Anyway, I've flip-flopped back and forth on whether I could actually buy a plane of my own. That is, could I find a plane that is not a lemon, and would I be able to keep it long enough to make a purchase worth it. And even if I was able to buy a decent certified airplane, it is likely to be too slow and burn too much fuel for the cross country I want to do. In a year, I would want to trade into an RV anyway. I know the RV has the speed and efficiency I want, but I have been curious how you could get a A&P to work on a plane that is not certified. Do they even do that? And if so, is it a nightmare to try to buy and maintain a plane that may have been a very "creative" build.

I was hoping for some opinions from people that have purchased them already. What have been your experiences?? How can I actually own a plane!!

Thanks. Andy

[Ron Lee]

An A&P can do the condition(al) inspection. Not all will but you only need one who will.

Look at Barnstormers, the classified section of this site and Trade a Plane to get an idea about prices as a function of what they have.

Then realize that you may take several months, have to make trips out of state and see more than one BEFORE you find one you like. Having an RV builder/pilot to help you assess the condition of one is ideal. Do have it looked over by a qualified A&P before you decide to buy.

[AndyRV7]

Originally Posted by Ron Lee

An A&P can do the condition(al) inspection. Not all will but you only need one who will.

Look at Barnstormers, the classified section of this site and Trade a Plane to get an idea about prices as a function of what they have.

Then realize that you may take several months, have to make trips out of state and see more than one BEFORE you find one you like. Having an RV builder/pilot to help you assess the condition of one is ideal. Do have it looked over by a qualified A&P before you decide to buy.

So what exactly is a conditional inspection? Is that just like a pre-purchase inspection or annual. Does that mean they will not fix whatever they find wrong in the inspection? Ultimately, as a non-manufacturer, I guess you need to have someone else do the work on your plane. I can't see how everyone that has bought one is qualified to do the work, or able to rely on the original builder for the life of the plane???

This is what I am trying to understand.

Incidentally, I have been addicted to those two sites for a while now, since I thought I would buy a certified airplane in the Spring.

Thanks.

[Mel]

Anyone can do maintenance on an amateur-built aircraft. Not that they necessarily should, but they can legally.
The condition inspection is the same as an annual inspection on a certificated aircraft except it does not have to be signed off by an IA.

[Ironflight]

....and there's nothing "conditional" about the annual condition inspection...it's either in a good condition or not! Just like you don't "Transition" an airport (what are you changing it into?!)....you can "transit" across an airport if you wish to use an archaic form of english...or you can certainly fly a "transition" to an instrument procedure.....

(Just having fun....no offense meant!...and totally irrelevant to the thread - sorry!)

Paul

[Ron Lee]

It is the one by my name. I do most of the maintenance but some things I have an IA do (like timing the mag). Much will be a learning process. Get to know other RV pilots at your airport. They will be the best source of info and education.

[Louise Hose]

Andy,
I decided to buy a flying RV and it has worked out great for me. While I had about 200 hours of flying time and had been in two partnership/club-like situations (C-172 and Cherokee 180) before, I knew very little about airplanes and maintenance. In my case, I successfully recruited a very knowledgable RV owner/builder who I trusted to help in the search. I did the following:

1. Followed the ads in Trade-a-Plane, VAF, and Barnstormers for about a year before starting a serious search to get a feel for the price, etc. From this study, I determined my parameters....which type of plane, price, and necessary amenities.

2. When I was ready and potential planes were advertised, I emailed/talked with the seller first and then flew (out-of-state) with my RV buddy to look at the plane.

3. We would then both check the plane out on the ground. My buddy pointed out any issues he saw in the plane. I tried things out on the ground and discovered that I can't (at least, comfortably) operate the manual flaps due to insufficent finger strength. A new parameter was added to the list. Then, my buddy went up on a test ride. I figured he would better recognize issues with the plane than me (and he did). While he flew, I went through the log books in detail. We rejected several.

4. Once the right plane was identified, I used the AOPA title search service and found that there was a lien that hadn't been mentioned. Otherwise, it looked good. We negotiated a price, contingent on a pre-purchase inspection.

5. Through the VAF, I found a great A&P with lots of RV experience right on the field where the plane was based. Oddly, the owner didn't know about the guy. A week or two later, I went back over (from New Mexico to Fort Worth) for the inspection, transition training, and purchase. I was very fortunate that the plane was near some highly qualified RV transition trainers. So, while the owner addressed a problem discovered by the inspection, I started T-training in Alex DeDominicis' RV6, which was good as my new plane doesn't have right-side brakes. When I was ready to fly the new plane, the owner flew my new -6 over to Alex's local field and we consummated the purchase.

6. Once done with the training, I flew off my buddy's wing to my home airport, where I continued to fly about four times a week until I felt comfortable in the plane. (If I hadn't flown a lot right away, I fear I would never have gotten comfortable.)

7. My plane was priced near the lower end for RV-6's. It has a very solid airframe, a C/S prop, an engine that was about 1/2-way through its hours, an awful interior, and a panel on its last legs. I made some temporary seats and planned to patch together any panel issues that came along for 2-3 years. And, they have come along. Finally, a little over two years after buying the plane, I've got enough funds together to do the work. I'm completely re-doing the panel (with a lot of help and expertise from Paul) and getting a professional interior right now.

8. I have done most of the work on my plane during the first two years, but almost always under supervision (and often assistance) from folks I completely trust. I immediately replaced the stick, seat belts, and changed tires. The vacuum pump and electric gyro went out within a couple of months, so I/we installed an ADI and Dynon 10A. I've also had to replace the alternator, regulator, throttle, mixture cable, carb heat cable, and cabin cable. Of course, I do my own oil changes, have cleaned a fouled plug, and re-wired a mag. Then, there's been a lot of avionics work where I needed a lot of help/supervision. All this work done mostly by me, someone with no real shop experience or other useful training.

9. I have done both annual condition inspections as "owner assist" with the same A&P in Dallas (Randy Richmond) 'cause he knows the plane, knows RVs, is really easy to work with, and the price is right.

As for flying cross-country, I have made the following trips in the last (and first) 29 months:
Dallas-Carlsbad, NM (about 6 trips back-and-forth)
Carlsbad, NM - Southern California (about 4 times)
Carlsbad - Colorado (2 times)
Carlsbad - Houston
Carlsbad - Florida
Florida - Virginia
Southern Cal - Colorado
Southern Cal - Northern Cal
Virginia - Upstate NY
Virginia - Houston (2 trips)
Virginia - Indiana
Indiana - Minnesota
Minnesota -Virginia
Virginia - South Carolina (2 trips)

So, yeah, you can do a lot of cross-country in a purchased RV if that's what you want to do.

[skyfrog]

Andy,

Before I decided to build, (and before I had completed my license), I bought a Grumman Traveler 4 seater (~$32K) based on my previous experience in Grumman AA1's. They are great aircrafts and generally less expensive than an RV, and they handle similar to an RV (or so I am told), but slow. Good on gas also. The really nice thing is my payments are really low per month, insurance is low also because the hull value is low, and I can stroll out to the airport three miles away and go flying anytime I want. In the last two weeks, I flew 8 or 9 times. (And I passed my first BFR Yesterday - WooHoo )

On the bad side of old certified aircraft ownership, I have put another $26K into my Grumman in repairs and upgrades. (You wouldn't believe how brittle a 35 year old windshield gets, $3K to replace). Alternator, wheels, battery, audio panel, Garmin 430, 106A, Card Compass, ELT, Prop O/H, fuel seal leaks($2K), etc, etc, etc,. One day I tried to see how close my hourly rate overall was in comparison to a rental. DO NOT EVER DO THIS! The twin rental was considerably less.

Bottom line, I thought I was going cheap, but spent more money in repairs than expected. If rentals are not available as you say, a partnership may be a good way to get into a decent aircraft. There are a bunch of well restored older certified aircraft out there, but be careful if you go old old certified, it may cost more in repairs than a not-so-old RV in great shape. So I think an RV, perhaps with a partner would be an excellent choice. A well restored AA1 Lynx would also be a good choice.

In my case, I continue to fly my now-in-good-shape Grumman regularly. The now lower hourly operating cost is paying off. I plan on flying my Traveler until that time in my RV-9A build where I need a finish kit and an engine. That's when I'll sell.

BTW, talk about enjoying the build process...I'm not yet done with my empennage and I'm already thinking about that RV-12 kit.

(It's a disease)

[keithschult]

Andy:

I did not build my RV-6A. I bought it in May of 2005. Before that I went two years without owning my own plane. During that time I belonged to a flying club and, while it was a good thing at the time for me, it didn't allow me the freedom that I needed & wanted. For example, the club wouldn't allow me to fly the club's airplanes on business trips. I have clients around the country and I prefer to fly myself to meet with them.

At the beginning of those two years I wasn't flying much because I was needed at the office to help with the ownership transition of the company. However, as I lived through those two years I encountered more and more occasions that made me want to have my own plane again. I had been forced to sell my previous plane at the sale of the company because I could not afford to maintain it myself. It was a 1992 Commander 114B, a complex, high-performance airplane that I really loved flying. But, operating costs were too rich for my blood so I did without. After two years I began to get the itch very badly and began talking to my A&P.

Like your desires, I wanted to regain as much of what I had enjoyed as I could. Well, my A&P was not a fan of experimental airplanes unless they were well built, no corners cut, etc. He offered to build me one himself but I didn't want to wait the years it would take to accomplish so we agreed to visit and inspect any that I was interested in. Like Louise states, I spent a lot of time on the internet, especially on Barnstormers. I didn't know about VAF at the time. I became as familiar as I could with the models from a distance and eventually settled on the 6 as my preference. I even wanted a 6, not a 6A. Then I learned what my insurance would be and decided on the 6A. I can do a lot of flying on the difference every year. After about a year of searching I discovered a 6A in Tea, SD, about 2 1/2 hours from KC via Skyhawk. I flew my A&P up there with me and he did a pre-buy inspection. It took the entire day to accomplish. My costs were about 5 hours of cost on the club Skyhawk and about 12 hours of A&P time (He worked for another man or he wouldn't have charged me for the overtime). No matter how much it cost to do that, it was worth every penny. My A&P was impressed with the quality of the airplane and I fell in love with a beautiful airplane that gives me better performance than the 114B but with the operating and maintenance costs of a Skyhawk. And, if I want to fly slow, I can.

My RV-6A has an O-360 (carbureted) Lycoming engine and a Sensenich fixed pitch prop. It is a quick climber and very responsive to the controls. I have been pleased to see 160kts cruise speed at 2450 RPM. Because I searched so diligently I was able to find one that was built very well, not the "creative" you ask about. And, because I kept my A&P in the loop all the way through the process, including introducing him to the builder, he is willing to work on this plane with me. Because of these things my airplane is not a nightmare to maintain and it is very dependable. I understand that anyone can work on this experimental but I think an A&P must sign off on the work. Therefore, I employ him to do a lot of the work while I assist. I'm learning a lot more than I did with my certified plane.

My builder was Gayle Wilts of Tea, SD. Gayle is very knowledgable and has built close to 25 RV's over the years and mine was apparently about the 15th or 16th one he had built. Being very new, at the time, to this idea of flying experimental airplanes, this was a great comfort to me. He built all the RVs used by the Vanguard Squadron of South Dakota. As much as I liked the 114B I would NOW never choose it over an RV (unless I was rich enough to afford both but then I would be like Mark Trimble of Branson and own many different airplanes). It's a great cross country airplane, too. I've been from Kansas City to Fort Lauderdale, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, Dallas, Chicago, Atlanta, Sedona, etc., and never been stranded or let down by the airplane.

Since owning this airplane I have joined the local EAA chapter and have come to know many local experimental pilots, including several RV pilots. One, Bill Gill, has just flown off his 40 hours on his RV-7, which is a beautiful plane. Three years ago, I wouldn't have known how good it is. You will learn a lot by diving in, but don't dive in the shallows. Meeting other local RV pilots is good advice, even if they are not based at your own airport.

I did the search for my airplane basically the same as Louise did. Follow her lead.

Also, Louise is right: Fly your RV a lot in the beginning or you may not get comfortable. It responds much different than the certified airplanes. Once comfortable it is so much fun!

[AndyRV7]

Thanks everyone ...your stories are great!! I think I have a much better sense of this process now.

I am really just like you guys/gals, which I guess means pretty normal. I had hoped to finish my PPL training in the next couple of months and then start to fly A LOT!! I figured when I got to around 250 hours or so, I would either buy an RV, or at least be well into the build of one. But logging the hours in a rental is not going to be easy (not to mention that I envisioned being able to go see my family or some other cool places scattered about the country!).

So I figured I would be able to buy a nice two seat certified plane. I would be giving up a lot of speed but it would be cheap to buy and cheap to operate (from a fuel burn standpoint). I figured that the benefits of ownership would help me deal with the slow speed. But when it comes right down to it, there just aren't more than a few plane choices.

So then I figured I might settle for a 5 GPH step-up in fuel burn (to 10 GPH) and pick up a few more options in planes, AND a little more speed. Anything much beyond 10 GPH is too much for me to keep up with. So I've been looking at the Grumman Cheetah and Tiger, the Beech and Piper equivalents too, and even the C172 that I am training in. The problem really ends up being that you are taking a big chance on getting a good one. And even if you do get a decent plane from the start, you are still going to have to spend money on repairs and upgrades, and that cost will need to be spread over several years of use to make the purchase worthwhile. That's going to be hard to do if you really have your heart set on a plane that can go almost twice as fast and burn almost half (maybe 3/4) the fuel.

Somewhere along the way, I've also stopped to consider a new plane purchase, just to get some comfort that might come with the warranty or newness. But even if you can "afford" it, you end up with a very expensive plane that still flies slower than you want, and the big hit of depreciation when you outgrow it in a couple years and sell it.

So the answer for me has been not to do anything!!! I'm not sure what I am going to do going forward. But thanks for the great feedback!!

Andy