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  #31  
Old 08-22-2010, 07:39 AM
David Paule David Paule is offline
 
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Anyone know if anyone's been busted for this?

Is it being enforced?
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  #32  
Old 08-22-2010, 08:06 AM
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apkp777 apkp777 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Paule View Post
Anyone know if anyone's been busted for this?

Is it being enforced?
IMO!

I am thinking this rule is one those, that the FAA can point to when there is a problem. Such as when there is a crash over a city and the reporters quoting the FAA will report that "the aircraft was prohibited from operating over congested areas".

Otherwise, I am not sure the FAA is particularly concerned about normal ops over "congested areas".
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  #33  
Old 08-22-2010, 11:45 AM
breister breister is offline
 
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This is exactly the sort of thing that some cities are trying to use to block experimental aircraft operations - recent case in point being one of the (Las Vegas?) airports out West.

However, note that most airports have one or more paths for arrival/departure that are not "congested" or "highly populated," and that we generally have sufficient altitude to make a safe landing unless you are on a circling approach IFR.
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  #34  
Old 08-22-2010, 12:40 PM
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GrayHawk GrayHawk is offline
 
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This is still a little confusing to me. If you look at the FAA notes associated with the 2 clauses (5) & (6), they seem to overlap & conflict:

"
(5) Except for takeoffs and landings, this aircraft may not be operated over densely populated
areas or in congested airways.

NOTE: This limitation is applicable for phase 1 and 2 and should be issued in
accordance with paragraphs 135b(1) and (2) of this order.

(6) This aircraft is prohibited from operating in congested airways or over densely populated
areas unless directed by air traffic control, or unless sufficient altitude is maintained to effect a safe
emergency landing in the event of a power unit failure, without hazard to persons or property on the
ground.

NOTE: This limitation is applicable to the aircraft after it has satisfactorily
completed all requirements for phase I flight testing, has the appropriate
endorsement in the aircraft logbook, and is operating in phase II.
"

If the (5) clause had said Phase 1 only, then it would make more sense.
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  #35  
Old 08-22-2010, 05:15 PM
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Mel Mel is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrayHawk View Post
(5)
NOTE: This limitation is applicable for phase 1 and 2 and should be issued in
accordance with paragraphs 135b(1) and (2) of this order.

(6)
NOTE: This limitation is applicable to the aircraft after it has satisfactorily
completed all requirements for phase I flight testing, has the appropriate
endorsement in the aircraft logbook, and is operating in phase II."

If the (5) clause had said Phase 1 only, then it would make more sense.
Note under (5) is a carry-over from the old operating limitations and should have been changed.
Note under (6) is correct. I've been trying to get them to update it for a while now with no luck.

BTW; These notes are for the inspector and should not appear in your op lims, although some FAA inspectors put them in.
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  #36  
Old 08-22-2010, 07:12 PM
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GrayHawk GrayHawk is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel View Post
Note under (5) is a carry-over from the old operating limitations and should have been changed.
Note under (6) is correct. I've been trying to get them to update it for a while now with no luck.

BTW; These notes are for the inspector and should not appear in your op lims, although some FAA inspectors put them in.
The 'Notes' are not in my operating limitations. I got them from the FAA governing document & felt they were unclear.

Mel, Should both limitations (5) and (6) be in the operating limitations for an aircraft in Phase II? Seems like a conflict.

'Pilot Since the Last Century'
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Last edited by GrayHawk : 08-22-2010 at 07:14 PM. Reason: typo
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  #37  
Old 08-22-2010, 07:28 PM
RV8R999 RV8R999 is offline
 
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Just had my inspection this morning and discussed this very topic with the DAR. He pulled out his manual and showed me the same notes. My Op Lim #5 says I cannot operate in congested airways or over populated areas but Op Lim #6 says I can in phase two with the caveats about ATC and altitude. Op #5 doesn't make sense with #6 included...it certainly needs to be changed.
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  #38  
Old 08-22-2010, 07:28 PM
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Mel Mel is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrayHawk View Post
Mel, Should both limitations (5) and (6) be in the operating limitations for an aircraft in Phase II? Seems like a conflict.
'Pilot Since the Last Century'
It is a conflict. Paragraph (5) is for phase I.
Paragraph (6) is for phase II. The note under paragraph (5) is a carry over from the old op lims and should be corrected to only include phase I.
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RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
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  #39  
Old 08-22-2010, 11:09 PM
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ArVeeNiner ArVeeNiner is offline
 
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Location: San Jose, CA
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Default Amending operating limitations

"1) Request for Amendment to Operating Limitations. Field inspectors may, upon request by the operator of an experimental, amateur-built aircraft, and after an appropriate evaluation of the request, issue amended operating limitations which specifically provide for flight over densely populated areas or on congested airways in accordance with the provisions of ? 91.319(c). When issuing amended operating limitations, ASIs shall determine that the operating characteristics, flight test maneuvers reports, maintenance history, and functional requirements of the aircraft, reflect a degree of safe operating practices that will minimize concerns for safety of the aircraft, operator, and persons and property on the surface."

This is found here: http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/8900.1/v0...03_011_001.htm

Seems to me that this is how we solve this problem. No?
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  #40  
Old 08-23-2010, 08:13 AM
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jnorris jnorris is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel View Post
It is a conflict. Paragraph (5) is for phase I.
Paragraph (6) is for phase II. The note under paragraph (5) is a carry over from the old op lims and should be corrected to only include phase I.
Actually you need limitation #5 even for phase II because limitation #6 does not have the "except for takeoff and landing" verbiage. Limitation #5 gives you the opportunity to take off and land. Limitation #6 gives you the opportunity to fly in the airspace under discussion when directed by ATC or when sufficient altitude is maintained once the aircraft is in phase II.

The only way you could eliminate #5 during phase II is to add the verbiage "except for takeoffs and landings" to #6, which is not as shown in the FAA Order. Thus, limitation #5 stays in effect in phase II in order to give the allowance for takeoff and landing.
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