LS1 Based FWF from Vesta

[Got2Fly]

Bill,

Thanks for pointing out the missing pieces in my logic comparing the pricing. There are just so many different aspects to this stuff that comparing apples to oranges is quite a challenge.

Regarding the Vesta, any new news on flying vesta v8 conversions? I'll be in Philly this summer and would like to make a trip up to Pittstown, what is there to see at the 'factory'?

Ken

[gmcjetpilot]

The best automotive engine conversion is to take $30,000 and convert it into a fresh IO-540 Lycoming. (Sorry could not resist)

Unless you want to be the first, I would wait to see what they have flying. A Lycoming is a bolt in deal, using all of Van's supplied components, engine mount, cowl, systems, without mod, re-engineering or designing. Resale will be better (with a Lyc) and you will be able to fly without being a "test pilot" and engine tinker. Nothing wrong with doing an experiment, but the engine in a plane, that has your back-side in it, is a big experiment. Think about it. If you want to be a test pilot, go auto, you want to fly, go Lycoming.

I think blazing a trail and being a pioneer is great, but in the end it will take much longer to build, the cost will NOT be significantly less if at all. Also, you may likely have something with less performance in the end. Weight will be much higher, I guarantee it. What are you going to do, make your 4 place a two place or ignore Van's weight limits? Again be careful what you do to a design that is made around a specific engine.

Where are the heat exchangers going. All the successful water-cooled planes (P-51) have an airframe designed around the engine and cooling system. Auto conversions I have seen all have their radiators installed as an after thought or a work around to the airframes design, intended for an air-cooled engine. The cooling drag is high which reduces performance and with the added weight , you are going in the wrong direction. Also forget any claims of fuel economy. It takes so much HP to make it go and a LS1, Subie or Rotary (actually a little worse) have no quantum leap in efficency or specific fuel use over a Lycoming. In fact the Lycoming, leaned at higher altitudes (lower % pwr) can get 24 mph or more. That is better than many cars, trucks and mini vans, and that is more than triple the national speed limit. Increase in MPG is from turbo charging (increased compression) and flying high, not all that practical for short flights or unpressurized cabins. Also tubo charges/super chargers come at cost of weight, cost and complexity.

A Lycoming with one mag (other EI) and mechanical fuel pump requires no special systems than the typical aircraft installation to operate or install. Auto engines with radiators, total reliance on electrical power have more "Stuff". Stuff like electronic fuel injection and ignition can go out. There are work-arounds, but again more work, weight and effort.

Cost can be less (than a Lyc) with a homegrown rotary installation for example. You can save you money, in trade for sweat equity. However all the commercial "engine kits" I have seen to date end up being very expensive, easily more than a Lycoming with off the shelf kit components from Van's. Plus you are stuck with a very expensive electric constant speed prop option, since most of the reduction drives have no provision for Hydraulic prop, which is superior and cheaper. The LS1 folks claim hyd prop capability? Cool, like to see that.

Just being different is enough to drive people to alternate engines. The promise of cheap overhauls is smoke and mirrors. A Lycoming flow regularly, maintained and not abused will go 2000 hours easily with no problem. I know because I have done it, twice. That is a LONG TIME and a lot of flying for the average pilot, at least 10 years or more. With gas costing $4/gal, I think we have other concerns. I might start looking for a real big rubber band.

I am building a RV-7 now and have $10,000 into my fresh overhauled O-360A1A. By getting a good deal on a core and overhauling myself , with friends help, I saved $8K. If I was building a RV-10 I would look for a good used O-540 and overhaul it. Since the O-540 is not as popular as the IO-540's, which are popular with the Rocket guy's, you should be able to get one for a good price, if you look. Why do you need FI, doing aerobatics with sustained inverted negative G flight? No. Go carb. I think you could get a O-540 in under $20-$22K if you are a good hunter. Just a thought.

Good Luck George

[Rotary10-RV]

[quote=gmcjetpilot]The best automotive engine conversion is to take $30,000 and convert it into a fresh IO-540 Lycoming. (Sorry could not resist)

GMC, What baloney! This IS the alternate engine forum! If you had read the previous posts where I commented on Mistral you will note I commented they are designed for HYD C/S from the outset. I plan to have a max of about 12K in my factory new conversion producing 250 reliable HP. (The core engine cost $2500.00 RUNNING)
Conversion is NOT for everybody, but please keep your trolls/fishing expeditions in the "arguement/neverending debates" forum. There is nothing sacred about anything made in the Lycoming factory, as the recent string of crankshaft failures indicates. The engine products are VASTLY overpriced. Those of us who are converting engines are the only people that will help keep your overpriced Lyc affordable. It is not for you obviously, but don't waste the bandwidth insulting the folks interested in other engine possibilities. A IO540 is a good engine, but sorry one new cylinder cost more than my core ENGINE. If I produce a reliable engine for less than a overhauled Lyc I'll have been successful in spades. I won't fly an unsafe final product be it Lyc or alternate engined.
ROTARY10-RV

[Jconard]

Great:

If you can do the following:

"I plan to have a max of about 12K in my factory new conversion producing 250 reliable HP."

Make it run at only 5% less performance than a lycoming for at least 200 hours,


I will buy 10 of them at $20K each.

Of course you may be a wee bit optimistic, but good luck.

By the way, if you really think that the cost of a lycoming is influenced in the slightest by the tinkering few...well, perhaps a business course would be a good investment.

[gmcjetpilot]

Originally Posted by Rotary10-RV

GMC, What baloney! This IS the alternate engine forum! If you had read the previous posts where I commented on Mistral you will note I commented they are designed for HYD C/S from the outset. I plan to have a max of about 12K in my factory new conversion producing 250 reliable HP. (The core engine cost $2500.00 RUNNING) Conversion is NOT for everybody, but please keep your trolls/fishing expeditions in the "arguement/neverending debates" forum.

First of all I have a right to express my opinion in a courteous fashion and I don't have to agree. Also I will post in any forum I want, but thanks for the advice.

Second this alternative engine category is not a fan club; it is a discussion of all aspects pro or con. If you don't want to hear the negatives don't read it. This is America. I guess you don't like my opinion. I read my original post again and think it is pretty positve and basically it rocked.

I also looked at your other post and you say things like "this is total BS". Watch yourself Ace, I don't care for your tone. BTW I find it ironic you, Mr. "Rotary 10-RV", is posting negative comments to a thread called "LS1 Based FWF from Vesta." Your calling me names?

As far as calling me baloney, fishing, troll, what ever, get over it, I just respectively disagree. I do not think you will achieve the design goals you think you can, at least compared to an IO-540. If the most intelligent thing you have to say is you can buy a car engine core for $1,000, than so be it. ($1000 for new Lyc cylinder with valves-springs-retainer-seat, piston, rings etc). I would not use a core myself if I was building an auto conversion. A new LS1 short block is about 6 to 7 grand I think. I agree a bargain in aircraft terms. Also I stand corrected that Vesta says they have a hyd prop set up "option". Like to see that.

To avoid your rage in the future, I have noted your user name and will never disagree with you ever again. If you want to attack me personally send me a private message to tell me off. Look forward to the beat down.

For the record I love American V8s and think they might work in high HP applications, but I also think the rotary is probably the best do it yourself auto engine on the market for the RV and looking forward to seeing Tracy Crooks 3 rotary RV-8. I have followed automotive conversions for years and admire them, but please don't mislead people into thinking this is going to be cheap, easy power. There will be much work and the results are not known. FACT. As far as a rotary, adding 2/3rds a qt of 2-stroke oil every fill up to the gas tanks or injector is not attractive. Also fuel economy and noise are issues, small but should be considered. However as I said Mr. "Rotary 10-RV" I like the rotary. Good luck with that.

I have an engineering degree, grad school and worked directly for and consultant to a long list of aerospace companies. Second I have been in experimental aircraft for 20 years. I have had my hand in building 3 RV's, RV-7 currently, none with auto engines. However I have worked with several auto engine conversions and had several friends and acquaintance build and fly auto engine planes. We seemed to remain friends and I supported them with out name-calling. I now fly for a living and have type ratings on several corporate jets as well as 3 Boeing models.

My goal is not to **** you off, but help give the novice a broad picture of the facts and opinion based on 20 years experience. Again it is my opinion that 99.9% of the builders are best served by a Lycoming or aircraft engine. I son't mean to say a car engine is not able to propel an aircraft. The one point is if you want to fly, get a Lycoming, you want to experiment get an auto engine. I respectively think you are wrong that you will be able to save significant money or gain any performance advantage from a (I)O-540. I am sure from my experience you will add 100's of hours or even a 1000 hours or more of build time, that is if you are skilled and have the shop resources. No doubt this is a cakewalk for you, but for most this would be a huge overwhelming task. That's all.

BTW, I think the Belted-Power guys with a basic, cast iron mild carbureted points ignition Chevy V6 and belt drive really have a nice reliable alternative to the O-320/360. For the RV-10 I guess you are looking for more power than a V6. Their belted system works for V8s as well. Have you looked into that? A belt has some nice properties, although does require periodic belt replacement (like your cam belt on your car).

I wish you the best of luck and hope you much successes and most of all fly safe.

Regards George

[rv6ejguy]

[quote=Rotary10-RV]

Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot

The best automotive engine conversion is to take $30,000 and convert it into a fresh IO-540 Lycoming. (Sorry could not resist)

GMC, What baloney! This IS the alternate engine forum! If you had read the previous posts where I commented on Mistral you will note I commented they are designed for HYD C/S from the outset. I plan to have a max of about 12K in my factory new conversion producing 250 reliable HP. (The core engine cost $2500.00 RUNNING)
Conversion is NOT for everybody, but please keep your trolls/fishing expeditions in the "arguement/neverending debates" forum. There is nothing sacred about anything made in the Lycoming factory, as the recent string of crankshaft failures indicates. The engine products are VASTLY overpriced. Those of us who are converting engines are the only people that will help keep your overpriced Lyc affordable. It is not for you obviously, but don't waste the bandwidth insulting the folks interested in other engine possibilities. A IO540 is a good engine, but sorry one new cylinder cost more than my core ENGINE. If I produce a reliable engine for less than a overhauled Lyc I'll have been successful in spades. I won't fly an unsafe final product be it Lyc or alternate engined.
ROTARY10-RV

I'd agree with Rotary 10-RV here. GMCJETPILOT has made his views well known. This stuff belongs in the never ending debate section. Let's try to reserve this section for actual real info on ALTERNATIVE engine choices. Not everyone wants a Lyc new or rebuilt. Lots don't go to TBO without topping or other work even with care. One 540 threw a rod here last year in a Piper, forced landed, aircraft written off. Any engine can break.

Some of us are addressing the weight and cooling issues on our -10 engine installations. I'm pretty confident that our -10 Sube will equal or outperform an IO-540 in almost every respect.

[rv8ch]

Some of us are addressing the weight and cooling issues on our -10 engine installations. I'm pretty confident that our -10 Sube will equal or outperform an IO-540 in almost every respect.

OK, now you have to tell us more! What are you using? Have you talked about this in other posts, so I don't waste your time re-typing it?

BTW, I also know George's opinions about auto conversions, but I like to read his posts. Since I'm doing an auto conversion (Eggenfellner), George's warnings help to keep me focused on some of the things that can go wrong. I'm happy to hear from people with a lot of experience, even if I don't always agree with what they say.

[rv6ejguy]

I've mentioned our latest RV10 project in some other posts. Sube twin turbo EG33 (3.3L SVX) flat 6 with P51 style rad scoop and proper exit door, Marcotte M-300 redrive with MT MTV-18-B/193-53a C/S prop. Looks like total package dry weight without accessories (no prop) will be in the 400 lb. range which is similar to IO-540. 260-300hp available for takeoff. Flat rated to 260 hp. Cruise rpm should be down in the 4000 rpm range

Currently flying a -6A with turbocharged EJ22T. Learned a lot on that one about rads, props, weight and intercoolers which we are applying to better solutions on the RV10.

Best of luck with your Sube!

[Rotary10-RV]

I also looked at your other post and you say things like "this is total BS". Watch yourself Ace, I don't care for your tone. BTW I find it ironic you, Mr. "Rotary 10-RV", is posting negative comments to a thread called "LS1 Based FWF from Vesta." Your calling me names?

GMC,
Sorry you don't like my tone. The truth is that if you review that post I was replying to someone that requested specific information about the FWF from Vesta. I reviewed the pictures and made comments. Jason Day from Vesta replied, and claimed there was more to the package, GREAT. I assured him and everyone else in other posts that I am NOT anti-Vesta V-8 package. But after seeing the problems others have had fitting a V-8 plus cooling in a cowl I recomended the person vait to see a flying example with some hours prior to putting out his money. I believe this is a totally justified atitude. Failure of several V-8 companies most notably Engine Air (who had seemed to be doing the job correctly) shows that a conversion is not for everyone. The question was asked by Bill Gipson, I responded to him to hopefully prevent another money lost horror story. Mr. Day responded and seems to be dealing in good faith, I told him I look forward to postings of first flights and hopefully continued operation. MY name is Bill Jepson BTW i responded using part of your handle as your post wasn't signed. I don't recall calling you any names.
I won't waste the typing time to post to you off-line we are both obviously firm in our likes/dislikes. My comments to this forum have been very forthright and open and I am going to run a Mazda 20B rotary conversion in my RV-10, hence the Handle "Rotary10-RV". Later posts suggested I take a business course... etc, hardly constructive even if you believe I'm self-deluded. I am a working independent contract engineer so business costs are something I do know a bit about. I purchased a running 20B engine for $2,500.00. I will do the teardown and rebuild to original specs myself. Unless there are major problems, (unlikely on an engine running at teardown), the rebuild should cost less than $3.000.00. The major cost will be the PSRU which I will purchase from Mistral the florida & switzerland based company who are certifing a 2 rotor engine. Cost; $6,500.00. This PSRU is designed for a HYD/CS prop. I plan to run the automotive injection which came with the engine. This puts my cost at 12K. I would not suggest that I would sell them to the public for that price, or that there won't be additional cost, just as there would be for a new or used IO-540. I enjoy building things so I am discounting my "sweat equity". There it is, like it or don't doesn't matter to me. I have tired of the excercise of justifing myself to those who like to argue and will limit posts in the future as the time can be better spent building.
Bill Jepson
Rotary10-RV

[gmcjetpilot]

rv6ejguy:
Sube twin turbo EG33 (3.3L SVX) flat 6. WOW, that will be something, please post pics and info when able. Cool.

Bill:
Gee, First have a beer and relax. I would like to hear more facts about the LS1 and your rotary project. Up until the RV-10 no one considered a V8 engine because it was too large for the other RV's. It may be great but who knows unless we get facts we can verify.

As far as the Rotary, that is a known quantity and well documented by Tracy Crook and others. It sounds like you are doing something different. Your last post listed cost and detail and a PSRU with a Hyd prop control? That PSRU sounds interesting. Tell us more, weight, Hyd prop! If they will sell you just the PSRU, great. I see their whole engine rotary package is expensive. Cool, good stuff, lets hear more. http://www.mistral-engines.com/ A 230HP engine cost $36,000. Why is there no flight test data, fuel burn, speed, etc. Can you tell us?

I really would prefer facts as you just presented about your rotary project vs. lecturing me or telling me "that's baloney". Facts Bill, please facts, no personal attacks. I am interested in what you are doing but not if you are going to call me names or use "This is total BS" and name calling.

Originally Posted by Rotary10-RV

I checked out the Vesta web site....The radiator layout is, Total BS sorry to say.

You can say whatever you want but there is a nice way to say it. I looked at Vesta's web site also and think some of their comparison numbers, cost and weight are not correct. However I have never used the word BS in any of my post, even to you. I have presented my point of view, I think the Lycoming engine for 99% of the RV builders is still an excellent choice. Do you have a problem with that?

I am interested in the auto engine conversion field, as I have been following it for 20 years. I have been disappointed by talk and mock mock-ups at air shows and claims made never met, time after time. I am very skeptical until the prop meets the air. Yes the Subie and Rotary (normally aspirated) have proved a level of performance that is acceptable but not quite up to the Lycoming for most installations.

For me the whole idea behind the original alternative engine was low priced engines that where as good as a Lycoming in performance. Overall the cost advantage has disappeared or even reversed for car engines as Lycoming and Lyc clones get cheaper. In fact Lycoming prices are going down with the clones now available. So there is a good alternative engie to a Lycoming, it is called a ECI or Superior. Also with so many in the field there are opportunities for used engines, as I took advantage of, which can actually make the Lyc cheaper than a total homegrown Mazda 13B. I know I did it. I agree the rotary can be cheaper than a new Lycoming, but I have $10K into my fresh O-360 Lyc. It can be done. With your $2,500 engine, $3,000 rebuild and $6,500 PSRU you are up to $12,000, about what I will have into my Lycoming with dual electronic ignition. What about all the other stuff you will need like a electronic fuel/ignition controller and radiators (plus oil cooler)? So $18,000 for a brand new Lycoming O-360 is not that bad. You compared a O-540 to your 13B mazda. Obviously a O-540 will be more, but a bargain can be had if you look. Van says they go for $10K to $15K used. I do not think you will get the 250/260 HP a O-540 can get out of your 13B.

The turbo charger is the key to high altitude operations where they can do very well and get a slight advantage over a normally aspirated Lyc at high altitudes. However most RV's fly local most of the time or below 10,000 most of the time. It is not a put down Bill, only a design factor. To get the most out of the turbo you need to fly high and suck O2 thru a tube. I personally don't care to use O2, so I choose to fly below 12,500 for most of my RV flying. However with 180hp and a light RV I can easily go much higher if I wanted to, but those turbo mazda's and Subie's may pass me.

What is your problem with what I am saying? Obviously your eyes have glazed because I am critical of some aspects of auto engines, because you miss all the positive things I said about the Rotary and Subie. I even talked a guy into the do it yourself Rotary. Why? It is the only do-it-your-self engine conversion with enough support for the average builder to complete, critical components are available and most important, can be done for less money. However the adding oil to the gas, noise and no Hyd constant speed prop option (not with standing the PSRU you mention) is a turn off.

I like the Subaru engine itself. I like the Eggy kit, but my complaint is the FWF kit too expensive. There have been do-it-your-self projects that turned out nice RV's with custom Subie engine installations, but the average person could not complete it from scratch in my opinion. If I had a Subie it would be the "big block" with turbo, but I just can't deal with the electric prop, it is just a personal choice. Since there is not PSRU with a Hyd prop control you are stuck. The MT electric prop is too expesive ($9,000).

As far as operation cost there is not as much difference from any auto engine and a Lycoming. They all burn gas and as you know the rotary will always be a gas-guzzler, unless you turbo it and fly real high (17,500 feet). The alleged savings of an auto engine at rebuild time will take 10-15 year to be realized, which is the time a Lyc will go between rebuilds. Yes I think the auto engine will go longer between oil changes but this is chump change compared to gas, hanger, insurance, tax and so on.

What is the problem saying the Lycoming is still a good engine? A blacksmith with a hammer and an anvil does not pound out a Lycoming engines. The materials, tolerances and digital processes and production controls are of the highest standards. The advantage of water-cooling is undeniable. This is where the auto engine has an advantage over a Lycoming or any air-cooled engine, but this is an airplane not a car. A plane has plenty of air for cooling, but water cooling is now available for the Lyc Cool Jugs The trade off's for lighter air-cooled engines are poor emissions, lower detonation margins and blow-by which dilutes the oil, requiring more frequent oil changes. However water-cooling carries a penalty in weight and difficulty engineering efficient heat exchangers into an airframe designed for an air-cooled engine. It is not a fatal flaw, just a challenge to be dealt with. The day Van designs optional heat exchanger cooling tunnels into the belly of the RV will be a good day for water-cooled auto engine conversions.

Best of luck with you Rotary engine 10-RV project. I am sure it will be very nice and all the work will be well worth it.

Regards George