Formation Training

[plehrke]

Originally Posted by n5lp

Great write-up Louise.

I am completely mystified as to why anyone would voluntarily install a vernier throttle control. I have used them quite a bit and absolutely hate them.

Not sure I understand why no vernier thottle is allowed for formation training? Anybody out there have the answer?

I just started doing some formation flying and found that my verneir throttle was very helpful. Five of us from the Big Fighter Factory here all have airplanes at our airport and we are working up to doing a formation flight for a photo. The planes are different in performance so may not actually be able to do a formation with all five. Fortuately several of us have formation experience and our airport has become very busy in formation training as some of the guys/gals in the new, big hangers are buying warbirds. Lots of T-6s (we have 8 on the field) and Steermans (8 or 10 on the field) training flights working up to the T-28, P-51, and Sky Raider formations.

[RV6_flyer]

Originally Posted by plehrke

Not sure I understand why no vernier thottle is allowed for formation training? Anybody out there have the answer?

The 'STANDARD' is NO vernier throttle in formation training aircraft. NO EXCEPTION.

Vernier throttle is too difficult to make changes FAST. PUSH Button then pull or push throttle in. It the amount of time that it takes the pilot to do that, he just flew into another airplane or is so far out of position that it takes a lot of work to get back in. We are flying 140 to 150 mph close to another airplane. At 150 mph, you are moving 220 feet per second. That extra second needed to change the vernier throttle takes away from your concentration is DANGEROUS!

NO VERNIER throttles for newbie in any of my formation flights. NO Vernier throttle in formation training aircraft. NO exception.

Flying wing on an experienced lead, you move the throttle a lot. Your wrist gets tired. Having to hold that button in while you change throttle position just makes your hand, wrist, and fingers sore to the point that you do not have the necessary control to be SAFE.

As a Flight Lead for the past 6+ years, I will NOT do formation training with a newbie that has a vernier throttle. I will not recommend a wingman that has a vernier throttle for a checkride. A flight lead's signed recommendation is necessary for a new wingman to get a checkride.

Newbie Formation training is NOT recommended with dissimilar aircraft. I will flat state that I WILL NOT do formation training for a newbie in dissimilar aircraft. It is possible that you may find another air show qualified Flight Lead that will do it but I will NOT.

Formation training CANNOT be taught over the internet. It takes actual flying and a safety pilot to learn in the shortest possible time.

[jclark]

Originally Posted by RV6_flyer

The 'STANDARD' is NO vernier throttle in formation training aircraft. NO EXCEPTION.

Vernier throttle is too difficult to make changes FAST. PUSH Button then pull or push throttle in. It the amount of time that it takes the pilot to do that, he just flew into another airplane or is so far out of position that it takes a lot of work to get back in. We are flying 140 to 150 mph close to another airplane. At 150 mph, you are moving 220 feet per second. That extra second needed to change the vernier throttle takes away from your concentration is DANGEROUS!

NO VERNIER throttles for newbie in any of my formation flights. NO Vernier throttle in formation training aircraft. NO exception.

Flying wing on an experienced lead, you move the throttle a lot. Your wrist gets tired. Having to hold that button in while you change throttle position just makes your hand, wrist, and fingers sore to the point that you do not have the necessary control to be SAFE.

As a Flight Lead for the past 6+ years, I will NOT do formation training with a newbie that has a vernier throttle. I will not recommend a wingman that has a vernier throttle for a checkride. A flight lead's signed recommendation is necessary for a new wingman to get a checkride.

Newbie Formation training is NOT recommended with dissimilar aircraft. I will flat state that I WILL NOT do formation training for a newbie in dissimilar aircraft. It is possible that you may find another air show qualified Flight Lead that will do it but I will NOT.

Formation training CANNOT be taught over the internet. It takes actual flying and a safety pilot to learn in the shortest possible time.

I tried a few formation flights a few years ago with the vernier throttle and for a moment or two I ***THOUGHT*** it was better. That was because I was a "newbie", about 6-ships out and not staying in position and only in 2-ship formation.

The change is pretty simple and can be done on the existing throttle cable in about 30 minutes.

Believe me (and others) ... when you are in the middle of an xx=ship formation, the **LAST** thing you want is to have a pilot next to you or in front or especially behind that has a VERNIER throttle, (especially on a fixed pitch wood prop :-) ) that will not allow the power change to made fast enough! ... Or on a rejoin, or in close trail, or JUST ABOUT ANYWHERE NEARBY!

I know what it is like having that combination and "it ain't pretty!" when it comes to formation. I was one of the people that had to make the change "right now!" and I am glad that is the case. This is one of the few ABSOLUTES in formation flying and it is that way for a GOOD reason.

Been there, made the change got the T-shirt (35-ship :-) ) and won't go back.

James

[Kahuna]

Originally Posted by Bill Wightman

Last year, we lost a new RV6 here in OKC in a simple 2-ship accident.

Where can I find out more about this accident?

[tcone1]

Scott,

I'm down at Sierra Sky Park in Fresno. I've got all these neighbors here at KE79 that have RV's, and none of them do formation.

Get in touch if you're interested in going after the FFI cert.

Tim
(559)352-6145

[Tandem46]

Originally Posted by Kahuna

Where can I find out more about this accident?

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...07X01753&key=1

http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...ad.php?t=13126

[Tram]

Originally Posted by jclark

The change is pretty simple and can be done on the existing throttle cable in about 30 minutes.

What must be done to change a Vernier throttle to a "none" Vernier throttle?

[n5lp]

Originally Posted by Tram

What must be done to change a Vernier throttle to a "none" Vernier throttle?

Find out the length of the present throttle cable by measuring in place or removing and measuring. Remove present cable by disconnecting at carburetor end, loosening any anchor in that area, removing nut at control end and pulling it out through the hole in the panel. You may need to remove wire ties or similar attachments to get it loose.

Reverse procedure with a non-vernier cable of the same length and connection type at carburetor end. Reseal firewall hole.

An inexperienced person at my airport did it with fewer instructions than that without difficulty.

[L.Adamson]

Originally Posted by n5lp

Find out the length of the present throttle cable by measuring in place or removing and measuring. Remove present cable by disconnecting at carburetor end, loosening any anchor in that area, removing nut at control end and pulling it out through the hole in the panel. You may need to remove wire ties or similar attachments to get it loose.

And just so there is no confusion:

The "black" throttles that Van's sells, are "not" verniers. They are push/pull friction lock, that go with the regular blue & red verniers.

L.Adamson

[Dgamble]

Originally Posted by Scott Chastain

Dear Listers:

...write up an article on how newbies like myself can get started with formation training.

I wrote up a little article after the Ohio Valley clinic last May:

http://n466pg.blogspot.com/2007/05/f...on-clinic.html

It's not all that close to you, but it might give you some idea as to what to expect.