Future of 100LL AvGas

[RV6_flyer]

Originally Posted by asav8tor

http://www.age85.org/


Someone quick! We need to inform these guys about the dangers of Ethanol in their avgas.....

Oh my they have been burning it over 10 years.

Someone tell them to stop!

--------------------------------------------------

When 100LL goes away a paradigm shift will occur in our thinking.

And do not forget the Vanguard Squadron of RV Formation flyers.

http://www.ethanolairshows.com/index.html

[Randy Walls]

I find it hard to belive that 10% Ethanol in unleaded is so bad. If all of the horrible things that are supposed to happen are true, Interstate 90 should be littered with dead cars all winter. I wish someone smarter than me would seriously evaluate the effects of E-10 fuel in airplanes. I know higher concetrations of ethanol or metanol in concentration can cause problems but I really wonder about 10% ethanol.

[tomcostanza]

http://www.age85.org/


Someone quick! We need to inform these guys about the dangers of Ethanol in their avgas.....

Oh my they have been burning it over 10 years.

Someone tell them to stop

!

Well that's interesting! The REALLY interesting thing is that they have STCs. So what's all the doom and gloom about ethanol in mogas? Is this just an urban/aviation myth? Are there limitations on the STCs? They say opinions are like...well, you know... But does anyone KNOW the implications of 10% ethanol/90% mogas in an O/IO-320/360?

I suspect (opinion alert!!!) that the replacement for 100LL will be premium mogas without the ethanol chaser, and the STC paperwork will then be worthwhile to someone.

[jonbakerok]

If they'd just leave out the lead, avgas would be 95 octane, and would work just fine for 95% of the fleet.
This would give us cheaper gas and also solve the problem for the oil companies, since it would basically be just extra-high-quality premium unlead, which would be legal to transport by pipeline.

The only planes that NEED 100LL today are:
1) High-performance piston workhorses that ought to be upgraded to a turbine anyway.
2) Antique warbirds that could be derated to run on lower octane.
3) Hot-rodded experimentals who could easily take it down a notch (or buy their racing fuel the same way Nascar does).

The WORST solution is for us to do nothing and discover that the oil companies have decided on their own to quit making avgas. That would force the same changes as above, except now we'd all be running even lower octane car-gas, with all its problems: low vapor pressure, ethenol (and water) contamination, poor stability, irratic quality, etc, etc...

The oil companies can't make 95UL unless the government tells them to. And as long as we keep our mouths shut, that's not going to happen -- the government would just love to let GA die a slow death for lack of a fuel to burn. They know full well that the oil companies will eventually quit making avgas on their own if nobody says anything.

Aren't we just about sick of paying at least $1/gallon more for a poisonous additive that sticks valves, fouls plugs, and forces frequent $5/qt oil changes? Why are we willing to let the convenience of the tiny few who actually need the nasty stuff ruin it for everybody?

Read this:

Pelican's Perch #55 Lead in the Hogwash

[asav8tor]

Here is the problem: If the refineries said no more 100LL tomorrow, here is your alt fuel, a bunch of little things would happen. All could be addressed but many would be unknown without testing and would end up happening in the field. So many variables, fuel tanks, lines, valves, temps, pressures, carbs, injectors, engines, and on the list goes. Who is going to pay for all that study? Who is going to scream SUE! When an electric fuel pump diaphragm rips? A valve packing leaks? Fuel line weeps? An O-ring dissolves? Tank sealer falls off and plugs a fuel inlet?

Problem is no one wants to pay to figure this stuff out so we are stuck with 100LL. For now.....

[jonbakerok]

Originally Posted by asav8tor

Here is the problem: If the refineries said no more 100LL tomorrow, here is your alt fuel, a bunch of little things would happen. All could be addressed but many would be unknown without testing and would end up happening in the field. So many variables, fuel tanks, lines, valves, temps, pressures, carbs, injectors, engines, and on the list goes. Who is going to pay for all that study? Who is going to scream SUE! When an electric fuel pump diaphragm rips? A valve packing leaks? Fuel line weeps? An O-ring dissolves? Tank sealer falls off and plugs a fuel inlet?

Problem is no one wants to pay to figure this stuff out so we are stuck with 100LL. For now.....

The only "little thing" that can happen if the fuel is exactly the same (except for the lead) is detonation. And that is only likely if you're running an engine with 10.5:1 compression and stock timing.

Yes, Lycoming and Continental would need to test their engines and declare which would work and which one's wouldn't. But frankly, if they don't already know, they need to hire an engineer.

What's the alternative? The oil companies simply quit making the stuff and we're stuck with cargas. That's puts us in the same boat with regards to testing, but with worse fuel and no factory support. And we get to lug highly explosive fuel in gas cans to the airport whenever we want to fly.

It's like anything else. Until the change comes, everybody will claim there's no solution. Then the change will happen anyway, and the things that have to be done to make it work will get done. And, as usual, the result will be worse than it could have been if the people who said it was impossible had got on-board in time to effect the outcome.

We can have cheap unleaded avgas that doesn't mess up our engines and threaten our safety. Or we can be learn to live with car gas. If we don't say anything, we get option 2.

[Ron Lee]

Supposedly 8.5 was the max for auto fuel.

BTW, ethanol is a scam.

[Brantel]

Car makers claimed engines would self destruct if the lead was removed from car gas. That was until the feds mandated no more lead. It was a miracle, all of a sudden car engines could run with no lead.

[Gary R.]

Is adding lead the only way to boost the octane in gasoline?

[the_other_dougreeves]

Originally Posted by Gary R.

Is adding lead the only way to boost the octane in gasoline?

No. However, it is (currently) the cheapest way. TEL (tetraethyl lead) is a great octane booster. Unfortunately, it is a "great" environmental pollutant - it doesn't degrade.

Otherwise, it must be blended. "Gasoline" is a mixture of several different streams in a refinery, and this mix is always changing to optimize the yield from the type of crude, product mix and season (vapor pressure of gasoline must be adjusted seasonally). Octane can be boosted by adding reformate, which is basically a low-octane that has been converted ("reformed") in an expensive process.

Someone mentioned NASCAR and leaded fuel. Lots of non-NASCAR race cars run on unleaded fuel and a growing number on diesel (particularly in endurance racing).

TODR