Message sent to Aircraft Spruce

MrNomad · #1 10-21-2007, 08:34 AM

Doug, you said: Group Buy Policy Change
I've been torn on this issue for some time. On the one hand I'm more than happy to help people save some money (i.e. the no-fee, no-hassle policy in the classified section), but on the other it's difficult for me to allow non-advertisers on the site to use the high visibility of the VAF Forums to help sell large numbers of product. Example: The recent group buy of Icom radios moved (68) units I'm told - at $1,119 apiece. That comes to over $76,000 of product that Aircraft Spruce will move, due in part to promotion done in my forums. Aircraft Spruce doesn't advertise on the site (I've contacted them in the past). I allowed the group buy discussions to go on because I hadn't given the matter enough thought and didn't want to stop it once it had started. Again, I can see both sides, but now the financial future of my family almost completely depends on the VAF site - and I'm afraid that changes things.
So, from this point forward I'm only going to allow the group buy threads that reference companies that advertise on this site.

Letter I sent to Aircraft Spruce in response to your post:

Dear Jim Irwin, President of Aircraft Spruce:

During the last 14 months, I've spent $21,352 at Aircraft Spruce for products and parts to complete my RV9A. Spruce has been a good vendor, helpful, responsive, and competitive.

When I made my $10,000++ avionics purchase, I informed the RV community via Doug Reeves' website, www.vansairforce.com, that I got a good deal from Spruce.

Thousands of us rely upon Doug's website for information and tips that, quite literally, can be life saving. Doug provides this valuable service for a mere $25 per year and that's on the honor system. Aside from that, Doug says he relies upon advertising to keep this site alive.

Aircraft Spruce is conspicuously absent from the list of advertisers on www.vansairforce.com.

In my opinion, you need to demonstrate your support for the RV community by advertising your excellent company on Doug's excellent website.

Mr. Irwin, please give the matter your serious consideration.

Barry DiSimone
customer # -------
cc: Doug Reeve's website posting

DeltaRomeo · #2 10-21-2007, 08:39 AM

Thank you Barry. I'm not sure this will get them interested in advertising, but I really appreciate the effort and kind words.

b,
d

Captain_John · #3 10-21-2007, 12:50 PM

Well, I have been torn on this issue all this week. I PM'ed Doug immediately, as it affects ME DIRECTLY! This is DOUG'S SITE and he can do with it what he will. I respect that.

Another way to look at it is:

I am doing the group buys for FREE and for everyone. The group buys are in the best interest of the people who participate. Most of them have paid Doug (ie. donated) and are supporting the site.

I am not going to pressure my choice vendor into donating to this site if he doesn't want to. I think it is very generous of them to do what they have done for those who wish to participate.

The problem is, now I need to find vendors who are either already associated with VAF or get them to kick in. This limits my choice in vendors.

I have a deal with Lord mounts at the corporate level but cannot release it with the current (new) policy in effect.

Hmmmmm, not so good...

Dunno...

What is your take?

I am at a loss.

CJ

BruceP · #4 10-21-2007, 01:28 PM

I think it's only fair that Doug run his business in this way. Non-advertisers should not get the benefit of the use of this site. I think it's fair to say that the owners of Aircraft Spruce make a pretty good living relative to Doug and his family. We as members of this site should support him in his efforts to serve all of us and still be able to make a decent living.

Mike S · #5 10-21-2007, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_John

Well, I have been torn on this issue all this week. I PM'ed Doug immediately, as it affects ME DIRECTLY! This is DOUG'S SITE and he can do with it what he will. I respect that.

Cap'n, I think that your handling this by direct contact with Doug is the correct way to go.

A week or so I moved a seat heater/group buy thread from the "general discussion" to the "group buy" section, and in doing so, I sorta stepped over the line----although unknowingly. I also sent Doug a PM about it, so he was able to "educate" me in private, and explain the policy, and why he deleted the thread. Made a lot of sense to me.

This is something Doug had thought about for quite a while, and made the decision he feels is proper.

As you said above, this is his site, and he can do with it what he will.

I think that the success of this site is more than enough proof that Doug doing things right.

Yukon · #6 10-21-2007, 02:17 PM

How about this. We all double our yearly contibution to Doug and his family so that we might continue to save hundreds on group buys. Or, how about we pay for Aircraft Spruce's ad. Coercing advertising dollars from corporations isn't good business as far as I can see. Let's find a workable alternative so that we might use the forum we all pay for.

Guy Prevost · #7 10-21-2007, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_John

Well, I have been torn on this issue all this week. I PM'ed Doug immediately, as it affects ME DIRECTLY! This is DOUG'S SITE and he can do with it what he will. I respect that.

Another way to look at it is:

I am doing the group buys for FREE and for everyone. The group buys are in the best interest of the people who participate. Most of them have paid Doug (ie. donated) and are supporting the site.

I am not going to pressure my choice vendor into donating to this site if he doesn't want to. I think it is very generous of them to do what they have done for those who wish to participate.

The problem is, now I need to find vendors who are either already associated with VAF or get them to kick in. This limits my choice in vendors.

I have a deal with Lord mounts at the corporate level but cannot release it with the current (new) policy in effect.

Hmmmmm, not so good...

Dunno...

What is your take?

I am at a loss.

CJ

This was a much longer post, but I'm editing it because I think it would have been missunderstood.

Here's the short version. Doug is a swell guy. I love this site and hope it continues to do well. I will continue to support it both financially and with the content I provide in the form of posts. I really mean this, it IS NOT sarcasm.

I think it's a bummer that we can no longer freely discuss group buys that aren't from an advertiser on this site. These deals have saved many of us a lot of money. I was hoping that as this site became more commercial that it would continue to be about the RV building community and what is good for ALL RV'ers, but I guess at times it's necessary to limit the content in order to keep the commercial side viable. So be it.

I'm guessing that group buys will continue to happen, but be hosted over on RivetBangers which is commercial content free and doesn't have advertisers to keep happy. Of course that's a much smaller audience, so the deals won't be as good and fewer RVers will benefit.

Kevin Horton · #8 10-21-2007, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_John

I am doing the group buys for FREE and for everyone. The group buys are in the best interest of the people who participate. Most of them have paid Doug (ie. donated) and are supporting the site. He might be willing to host it.

...

Hmmmmm, not so good...

Dunno...

What is your take?

If you feel strongly about this, start up an e-mail list dedicated to group buys. You might try contacting Matt Dralle at Matronics (home of the RV-List).

I agree that this is Doug's site, and he is completely free to do what he wants. And everyone else is free to use another means to learn about group buys if they want.

Captain_John · #9 10-21-2007, 05:29 PM

Gents, I know that we are all in agreement that Doug is free to run his site his own way. When we are here, we are in Doug's house. We don't have to like it and I think we can constructively criticize so long as we keep all the criticism above board.

That being said, the real reason for my group buys is to benefit the builder(s). They are done by me (us) for the RV community. The fact that a company needs to facilitate the deal and possibly make money off the deal is a by product as far as I am concerned. Doug sees it differently. Okay...

The group buys are CERTAINLY something that pulls people to this site and that means more hits for this site and more dollars/donations for Doug.

I dunno, really. I do know that www.rivetbangers.com and www.homebuiltairplanes.com are two websites dedicated to the spirit of experimental airplanes and both Spike and Jake are doing them out of the generosity of their own hearts.

I cross post the GB's to those sites, but the primary interest is here due to the sheer numbers of this site due mostly to the fact that it has been up for a longer period of time.

Once again, I am just trying to do a good thing and I get caught in the mud!

So, bottom line...

No more group buys in the near future for me on www.vansairforce.net, I guess?

Hmmmm, not a good solution.

CJ

Bubblehead · #10 10-21-2007, 05:50 PM

It's Doug's site BUT let's check our assumptions. There many possible reasons for Doug providing this site. Two of them are:

1) to promote the building and enjoyment of RVs

2) to support his family and his flying

Eliminating group buys seems like it would help #2, but may not since it reduces the value of his site to his customers (us)! That could reduce site visits, which could reduce the value of advertising for all advertisers and could reduce the likelyhood of attracting new advertisers!

It's been my experience in business that if I take care of the customer and provide greater value, greater economic value will come to me and my family. I also experience greater intrinsic value, which is important to me. It's why I love my job and see it as so much more than a paycheck. In this case group buys increase the value to builders and owners whioch should make advertising space more valuable.

I'm not sure what to recommend to Doug except to say if it's good for RVers it will naturally be good for his site and therefore for him and his family.

It's also hard for me to feel too badly for a guy who can fly during the day when I'm in my office! I'm happy for him to have that freedom, and wish him continued success, but it seems to me making it harder on the rest of us through reduced group buys is not a very good way to go about it. I also have run my own business and know that if I take off in the morning to play I have to work later in the day to make up for it! I'm sure Doug's business is the same way.

I think the right way for Doug to approach this is by continuing discussions with ACS and other companies that benefit from group buys. Keep telling them the $ value of the business they receive through the group buys and how many people view these forums every day. If they are smart they will want to get permanent exposure on the website. This is the #1 forum for RVs and RVs are the #1 homebuilt so it should be easy for ACS and the others to see what's in it for them.