A few general ?'s from a student pilot.

[AndyRV7]

Hi,

I was hoping someone could educate me a little on maintenance. I am thinking in terms of an RV, but I may like to try to buy a trainer to log hours in in the Spring. So the answers should help in both regards. If I buy a trainer it will be because it is the most economical plane to fly (fuel anyway!).

What I am curious about is what exactly are the maintenance requirements for an airplane? I'm not worried about things like replacing fluids and whatnot, more what is required by the FAA or manufacturer for things like an annual or a major overhaul (or any other common maintenance). These are only terms I've heard before. I have no idea what they actually entail, or how often the overhaul has to be done (which I assume is more expensive than an annual inspection).

Any info you guys have would be a great help to me. I've been searching all the usual plane trading publications, trying to come up with a plan for when I complete my pilot training, but I can't really get a sense of what a good deal or bad deal might be because I have no sense of what the costs or schedules of maintenance are. Since the RV uses the same engines as might be found in a Cessna, I assume the requirements are going to be pretty similar.

Thanks!! Andy

[Mike_ExpressCT]

AVIATE:

Annual-required every 12 calendar months (homebuilts require a "condition" inspection, not annual). It's basically an inspection of the entire airframe that follows a specific list given by the company that built the airplane. The A&P will take off inspection panels, check hinges, bolts, tires, brakes, engine compression, general condition of airframe, etc. It normally takes several days to accomplish, assuming nothing is found broken. Homebuilders will do the same thing on their own (that condition inspection), assuming they built the airplane.

VOR-for IFR flying, the VOR must be checked every 30 days.

100 Hour Inspection- Only for aircraft used for compensation or hire. Basically the same inspection as an annual

Altimeter- for IFR flying, it must be checked every 24 calendar months

Transponder- all aircraft must have a transponder check every 24 calendar months

ELT- must be checked every 12 calendar months. Many do this at the annual.

When you're talking about an overhaul, you're talking about a tear down and rebuilding of the engine where you inspect everything and replace worn parts. There are several types of overhauls, depending on how thorough you want to be (and how much you're willing to spend). Engine builders will publish a recommended Time Between Overhauls (known as TBO), but it's just a recommendation, not a requirement.

These are the required inspections, which hopefully gets you started, but if you want to know about all maintenance, that is a very general subject with lots of points. You may want to consider talking to an A&P about it at some point.

[AndyRV7]

That's excellent info! Thanks.

Just some more details now please. Obviously, an "annual" can be a pretty varied expense depending on what is found. Can you tell me what a typical inspection might cost if nothing is found that needs repair? Also, are there some common things that wear out, like brakes or tires, or cables or whatever? I'm not looking for precise answers, just to form a kind of opinion about what type of costs I might run into.

Also, on the overhaul, I see you can buy a new 180hp engine for around $30K. So this is worst case. But is there a ballpark figure for an overhaul, when all cylinders are good and no piston or rod issues exist (that is, the moving metal parts are all in tolerance, but maybe some gaskets or smaller items need attention)? Again, I am just trying to see what the longer-term costs might be. For example, can you typically go 2-3 overhauls before you need new cylinders or pistons, or do these things typically get replaced every overhaul.

Oh, and I guess one last thing. What is the typical TBO for something like an O-360 that might be found in an RV? Is it 500 hours, or more like 2000 hours.

I know these are all going to be generalizations, but I am starting at square-1, so this is all good discussion. Thanks again for the help!!

Andy

[John Clark]

Andy,
There is no way to really nail down the cost of an annual inspection on a certified airplane. You can ask a few shops what the charge is for an "open, inspect, and close" on a particular aircraft. Shops usually have a "flat rate" for that part of the inspection. Obviously, repairs or replacing worn parts is extra. The variables include part replacments and ADs (airworthiness directives) that are mandated by the FAA on the airframe or components. Another good source of information is a "type club" for the specific airplane involved.

The main thing to remember is that if your buy a used production aircraft it is likely to be quite old. Old equates to more cost to maintain. When you build your RV, the inspections are simpler because it is fresh. Old aircraft are having corrosion issues and things that years to develop.

I just looked through the files on a Cessna 182 (1977) that I used to own. The cheapest annual was $350. the highest was $5200. And I was assisting the IA by doing some of the work. The most I have spent on a condition inspection on my RV8 is $400. but that included main gear tires and a battery.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

[Mike_ExpressCT]

After talking to one of my students who also happens to be an A&P/IA, his base rate for a fixed gear, two seat airplane is around $600. So that's the absolute bare minimum, assuming everything is great on the plane. Figure more like $750-1000 for a "standard" annual (no real problems), and as we've already said it can easily be 3-5 times that if something needs some additional work.

When talking about overhauls, there are several options to consider. There are field overhauls, top-end overhauls, complete overhauls, with tons of different options when deciding. And you're right, the most expensive way will just be a brand new engine, followed by a rebuilt engine, and then overhauls which (my gut feeling) could be anywhere from $15,000-$25,000, depending on what you want.

Most 4 cylinder Lycoming engines have recommended TBO's of 1800-2000 hours, depending on make. If you get into turbocharging and larger engines, that may drop as low as 1500 hours, and on the opposite end of the spectrum, the small, 4 cylinder Cessna 152 engine (O-235) I believe has 2400 hours. Like I said though...you aren't required to overhaul at that time...it's just what the company that built the engine suggests. Most people will look more towards the condition of the engine (the compressions, how much oil it burns, etc.) to decide when it's time to overhaul. I've heard of several engines that are taken good care of and ran often that weren't overhauled until they had well over 3000 hours on them, and even then there wasn't anything wrong with them. Most A&Ps will tell you that, if you want to make an engine last, be gentle to it (avoid abrupt power changes, etc.) and run it as much as you can, hopefully at least once a week.


Are you thinking about a certain type of certified airplane? Or are you comparing the differences between certified and homebuilt?

[AndyRV7]

Thanks John. I hear what you are saying and understand. The whole buy/rent thing is a hazy mystery. Maybe if you choose to buy, the best you can really hope for is some good luck!!

I can't go right to an RV because I am only going to have the national average of hours (more or less) by Spring when I finish my license. So I had hoped to buy a 2-seater to log time in and if it could have been a Cessna 140, or even a Citabria, then it would have killed two birds with one rock. But even if I had to get into a C152 or the like, I could have logged enough tail time over at Andover Aeroflex. But I really want to own a plane. I knew that long before I took my first lesson (or even decided to take my first lesson). So now the question is what to do between my pilot certificate and the time I might be able to build or even buy an RV.

Thanks for the feedback!

Andy

[BillFear]

Andy, John makes a great point about older trainers. The C150 I occasionally rent is in generally good condition. However, it seems like whenever I want to fly it there is something not working. Owner told me the last annual was $3700 and that did not really involve anything major (had a leaky noisewheel strut). Even a simple plane like the 150 has a ton of very expensive parts!

Bill

[AndyRV7]

Originally Posted by Mike_ExpressCT

Are you thinking about a certain type of certified airplane? Or are you comparing the differences between certified and homebuilt?

I feel a lot smarter already now Mike. Thanks again.

I am looking at all the 5GPH 2-seaters. They are just less of a commitment (from a purchase standpoint), and the most efficient to fly on an hourly basis. But when you get right down to it, there aren't too many in the class. I like the C140, the Beech Skipper, and the Grumman Yankee Clipper. They all have their own drawbacks though. But at around $25K to buy, and 5GPH in fuel, I think they would be pretty good choices for logging time and doing some short (slow) X-country.

I really want the RV-7 for all the reasons you people do. The performance envelope is greater than vitually anything else I've run into in my search. I don't mean it flys faster, but it also slows down well, can be flown into a grass strip, and can do X-country upside down if you care to. So how can you go wrong!? But even if there was a large pre-owned market, there is still a significant expense and you give up the tremendous ability to know and maintain your own plane.

So I am not ready to fly an RV, but I want one. And if I had the choice, while I was building time and skill, I would rahter do it in my own plane than to pay my school $110 bucks an hour to do laps around the field or short restrictive trips.

I guess the few posts I've made in here are just helping me in both regards. I got my RV-7 preview plans yesterday in the mail. The one thing about building is that if you want the plane next year, you need to start building 2 years ago So I'm just trying to come up with an educated plan I guess.

Andy

[586RG]

It appears you are asking what it might really cost to own a basic airplane.
Owning your own airplane is an expensive venture. Hangar $150 and up per month (or your plane is always dirty and ages quicker). Insurance: for a Cessna 150 worth $30,000 this might only be $800 or so per year. I paid $6800 per year for a $400,000 Mooney, $2600 for the RV6 worth $105,000. Annual: figure $1500 for a C-150 if you don't run into any major problems. I had a $100,000 Mooney M20 J and got stuck with a $15,000 annual once on a plane with no apparent problems that had been having routine annuals, and this wasn't for corrosion or some other nightmare. I was charged $250 to stop drill a crack for example (ie put drill bit on drill, then drill small hole in sheet metal.) Parts for certified aircraft are outrageously expensive. Avionics are expensive to repair. There is always some steam guage that needs to be overhauled. Then there is depreciation to consider: airframe depreciation, engine time depreciation, prop depreciation, paint depreciation, interior depreciation, avionics depreciation. All of these have a limited lifespan and you have to budget for them. Or buy a plane that someone has updated and that has 600 hours or so on the engine and then sell it before it reaches midtime (usually 1000 hours on a 2000 hour TBO). It is almost always cheaper to buy a refurbished plane than to buy a junker and try to fix it up.
Have someone who knows what they are doing help you buy the plane.
Have an annual done as the "prebuy" inspection.
Overall, it makes a lot of sense financially to buy a 150 that is in excellent shape and then fly the heck out of it while you slowly build your dream plane. If you don't plan to fly 150 to 200 hours per year you are better off renting.

[AndyRV7]

Originally Posted by BillFear

Andy, John makes a great point about older trainers. The C150 I occasionally rent is in generally good condition. However, it seems like whenever I want to fly it there is something not working. Owner told me the last annual was $3700 and that did not really involve anything major (had a leaky noisewheel strut). Even a simple plane like the 150 has a ton of very expensive parts!

Bill

It's a shame too, because the 150/152 seems to be the most common of the planes we've been talking about. I've left them off my list (not because I wouldn't be very happy to own one), but because they are the highest hour planes I've seen. They are also narrower inside too, which is a concern. But I'd own any of these planes and love it like a proud parent!