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10-17-2007, 11:22 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
Posts: 10,011
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Energy calculations
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Originally Posted by Andy_RR
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One thing that always amuses me and is the reason why people aren't downsizing in droves to smaller fuel efficient vehicles is that the capital cost of owning, depreciation and the non-fuel running costs of any vehicle usually far outweigh the costs of fuelling the vehicle. I guess it may also apply to aircraft.
My brother, who, despite working in the oil and gas industry in Melbourne, is the biggest greenie at heart but reached the conclusion that his 5.0L V8 Falcon as a family car was not going to be traded for a smaller, more fuel-efficient four-cylinder because he couldn't justify in his mind the enormous capital cost required to swap, when compared to the potential fuel savings.
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Exactly, and how much of that high capital cost is energy used in the manufacturing process?
It seems few people calculate the entire energy equation including the creation of items...
At one time a solar panel used more energy in it's creation (it takes a lot of energy to melt sand and make silicon...  ...) that it would probably deliver in it's lifetime.
There is no such thing as "free" energy, we just need to clarify the calculations and move to efficiency...
gil A
__________________
Gil Alexander
EAA Technical Counselor, Airframe Mechanic
Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
RV-6A N61GX - finally flying
Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ
Last edited by az_gila : 10-17-2007 at 11:57 PM.
Reason: spelling
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10-17-2007, 11:55 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Norway, Stj?rdal
Posts: 598
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az_gila
Exactly, and how much of that high capital cost is energy used in the manufacturing process?
It seems few people calculate the entire energy equation including the creation of items...
At one time a solar panel used more energy in it's creation (it takes a lot of energy to melt sand and make silicon...  ...) that it would probably deliver in it's lifetime.
There is no such thing as "free" energy, we just need to clarify the calculations annd move to efficiency...
gil A
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This is the heart of it. People and politicians focus on the wrong end. Making more fuel efficient cars does very little for the total fuel consumption that car represent when we still are using coal and oil for energy production and when all transport of goods is fueled by fossil fuel.
I think this stems from the early and fundamentally flawed environmental philosophy that has gaining widespread axceptence now; If each and everyone do a little, then it all adds up (and we can save the planet, and bla bla). This is nice thoughts, but it is not how things work. IMO the only thing that will work is to forbid (on a global scale) fossil fuel in energy production. Nuclear power, hydro, solar (for places suited) is the only solution. Then, when the main problem is solved, it is time to focus on transportation; shipping, goods on roads and aviation. And finally the private sector, personal automobiles.
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10-18-2007, 05:45 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bennington, Vermont USA
Posts: 1,301
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If fossil fuel is becoming rare the market will price it at an ever increasing level and people will be more careful how they use it, even without a nanny government scolding them to do so. Eventually it will be put out of competition by up and coming atlernatives. I suspect that this is further away than most people fear. In the mean time however it is an incredibly economic and effective way to store a lot of energy in a moving vehicle - and as I said before we place a huge value on our moving vehicles.
Last edited by jsharkey : 10-18-2007 at 05:27 PM.
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10-18-2007, 07:48 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chesterfield, Missouri
Posts: 4,514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briand
I ask you this: If co2 comes out of my tailpipe way up in the sky and no one is there to see it, does it really ever come out at all?  ....
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CO2 in the atmosphere takes on average about 5 fives years to recycle. Water vapor, for example, recycles in about 5 days. More C02 is going into the atmosphere today than is naturally recycling out.
The amount of C02 in the air is measureable back eons of years. Ice core samples (one way of measuring ancient settings) contain trapped bubbles of air, that's how scientists measure it. Actual CO2 measurements have been going on for only about 150 years.
It's not the percentage of CO2 today that is of concern, it is the rate at which it is going up. That steep curve is unprecedented. So far, the effect on the green house has caused a temp rise of about .8 of a degree C since the beginning of the industrial age. Previous ice age to warm ages swings have had temp changes of 6-8 degrees, so we are not in a total tail spin yet. The typical swing occurs about every 100 thousand years. We are coming out of a cool period at present.
I am no expert on this stuff, only know what I know from
http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/coursede...%20Mathematics
Sure beats watching TV sitcoms and shoot em ups. 
__________________
RV-12 Build Helper
RV-7A...Sold #70374
The RV-8...Sold #83261
I'm in, dues paid 2019 This place is worth it!
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10-18-2007, 08:20 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bountiful, Utah
Posts: 161
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Let me share a little known secret with you fellow RV fanatics  , I recently bought a used cng/gasoline bifuel F150 from EBay (2001 F150 w/7700 option, 5.4l engine, 56000 miles, for $5000 after tax rebate).
The pickup has close to the same power/mpg with either fuel, but we can buy cng from local stations for $0.73/gallon equiv here in Utah. The price/gal is even cheaper if you buy a home cng compressor and plug it into your natural gas heating line and fill overhight.
The Ebay cng vehicles generally have low mileage "fleet" maintained vehicles available at lower than bluebook prices (therefore the $7000 cng conversion and tanks are basically free). Many states (like Utah) also offer a tax rebate for part of the original cng conversion value, and they allow clean-fuel vehicles drive solo in the HOV lane.
Natural gas prodction is mostly domestically produced; it is a waste product (flared) from the oil industry in many locations. CNG is very clean burning- it allows exceptionally long engine life (does not pollute crankcase oil).
Downside, not all areas have cng pumps available at this time. You will probably need to use gasoline for at least a portion of your use on cross country trips.
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10-19-2007, 07:36 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 13
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Personally, I'm converting my f-150 to propane. It's an older carb model. I costs a whopping 150.00 plus propane tanks to convert it. The same equipment is also used for natural gas. As far as CO2 emissions.. Why don't we compare human based emissions to volcanic/zooplankton emissions. I can't remember the exact percentage, but we only account for less then 8 percent of total co2 emissions. If I can remember my old geology days, I remember that there were something like 17+ different major variables that determine the temperature of the earth aside from humankind...
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10-19-2007, 07:59 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bountiful, Utah
Posts: 161
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Propane is more expensive than cng has a lower fuel value (expect a drop in mileage/power) and far better availability.
As an environmental engineer, Ive been aware of and watching the warming trend for over 20 years. Don't believe all of Gore's/media poorly researched hype. In fact, the warming trend started long before the CO2 buildup did- it is likely that warmer temps had an effect on the earths biomass which in turn, added to the CO2 load. There has been very limited correlation between CO2 levels and short term weather. Because of the small actual rise in temps, the statistical methods used are critical in determining the significance of changes- they have been found flawed and wanting, therefore, the "popular" interpretation of results has been weak at best.
Our climate has warming over the last century no doubt, but there is little to prove that man-related CO2 emissions are more than a minor component of the warming cycle. Natural events (sun flares, forest fires, volcanoes, dust storms, etc) have a much larger effect. If anything, the biggest man-made effect on CO2 levels is deforestation in the world's large rain forests. If you believe in the natural cycles of things, we are likely due for a cooling trend soon.
FWIW, I believe many of the conservation corrective steps being pushed are positive. They just will not have a noticeable effect on global warming cycles.
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10-19-2007, 01:43 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Grand Rapids MI
Posts: 742
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rtry9a
The price/gal is even cheaper if you buy a home cng compressor and plug it into your natural gas heating line and fill overhight.
Natural gas prodction is mostly domestically produced; it is a waste product (flared) from the oil industry in many locations. CNG is very clean burning- it allows exceptionally long engine life (does not pollute crankcase oil).
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JC, how much does a home compressor go for?
Propane is a by-product from refining oil into gas. Natural gas is.... well natural. Hence its name. They are getting a lot more of it these days from taps sunk into garbage dumps (from decaying organic material) but most of it still comes from deep in the ground.
I agree with your thoughts on conservation. I don't think I would take any steps to conserve if it didn't save me any money. I have been replacing my light bulbs with compact fluorescent but only because they finally got the cost (less than $2) of the bulbs down to where your payback comes in less than a year. The resulting less polution is just icing on the cake.
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10-19-2007, 02:11 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Pisa, Italy
Posts: 25
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Not to be a downer
The scary part about the oil industry is that they keep doing crazy desperate things to get the oil. I surveyed an oil site for an extremely rich Texas oil businessman, and he dug the well to 18,500 feet! That leads me to think that we are reaching our peak potential. Why would he go to such extremes to get oil if it were plentiful. My suggestion to those who can, is to prepare for the worst and hope for the best. One day oil will cost over $100 per barrel, probably more like $300. We learned in 1st grade that oil will run out. Why do we keep overlooking that inconvenient truth.
On a lighter side I hope we have years left of the stuff because I haven't even shot a rivet on my dream RV-7 yet!
Don't take my word on it though, just turn on the news to watch the resource wars....
V/r
-SD
__________________
Shane Davis
N914SJ (Pending Reserve Request)
Interested in -7A, -12 (Not Building YET!)
AGE Craftsman (USAF)
Pisa, Italy
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10-19-2007, 03:28 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briand
JI have been replacing my light bulbs with compact fluorescent but only because they finally got the cost (less than $2) of the bulbs down to where your payback comes in less than a year. The resulting less polution is just icing on the cake.
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did you count the cost of disposal of the bulb when it finally fails? (it _does_ contain mercury, you know). tanstaafl
__________________
john prickett (VAF 449)
manchaca, tx (suburb of austin)
rv-7a finish kit
N337JP (reserved)
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