Wingtip landing lights

[Highflight]

Originally Posted by Thermos

One of our local -8 builders has a set of the CreativAir combo landing light/LED nav lights in his wingtips. With the landing lights on, the nav lights seem to be washed out and more difficult to see - and those LED lights are pretty bright. That's on the workbench, though, and I'd like to see how they work in real-world ops.
Dave

Just to play Devil's Advocate; imagine looking at an aircraft (at a distance) with the Duckworks lights AND the Creative Air nav lights on in the wingtips. The landing lights are still going to be a lot brighter than the nav lights so even though the landing lights are a couple of feet away from the nav lights, the landing lights will still most likely "wash out" the nav lights because of the difference in brightness.
I'm thinking that when the landing lights are on, the nav lights are kind of superflous anyway for determining orientation and direction of the aircraft.

[Thermos]

Well...

I looked at the pictures on Duckworks' website. There seems to be a bit of separation between the landing and nav lights. But you're certainly right that if you're looking into the landing lights, nav lights aren't your primary concern.

Dave

[vlittle]

Before we get too excited about LED lighting, there may be some regulatory issues that need considering.

In the great white north, *conforming* position lights are a requirement for night flight. Since our 'CARS' are based on US 'FARS', I'd recommend digging through the requirements. I've quoted the Canadian requirements.

Please note, that the appendix referenced is very specific in the technical requirements. You CANNOT slap on a green light, a red light, a tail light and be legal for night flight.

In addition, LEDs exposed to the environment will fail by way of corrosion, and not likely burn out. Some means of replacement should be considered. It could be expensive to replace the entire module.

Whelen makes certified LED position lights at Whelen prices (i.e. expensive).

In the end, LED's are a great idea... but you must certify your installation to be legal for night flight...

As for landing lights... I've landed several times without landing lights, and I consider them a convenience feature, not an essential requirement (but must have runway lights!) However, I will use landing/taxi lights during the day in wig-wag fashion for anti-collision.

Now, what we really need are LED landing lights!

Vern Little
RV-9A

====

Power-driven Aircraft - Night VFR

(1) The position lights and anti-collision lights referred to in CAR 605.16(1)(k) shall meet the requirements set out in Schedule 1 of Appendix I of this standard, and shall:

(a) comply with the standards of light distribution, intensity and colour, and the flashing characteristics, where applicable, in accordance with the Airworthiness Manual;

(b) be installed in accordance with the requirements set out in Chapter 551 of the Airworthiness Manual; and

(c) not cause glare or other annoyance to a flight crew member to the extent that the person's ability to perform duties safely is affected.

(table deleted)

[Thermos]

Good point, Vern.

I did a little digging in the US FARs. FAR 91.205 requires "approved" position and anticollision lights for night VFR/IFR operations. In this case, my guess is that "approved" means certification via a TSO, STC or some other airworthiness approval process.

But can a DAR or FAA airworthiness inspector legally approve an LED lighting system as part of an amateur-built airworthiness inspection? Who knows...

Dave

[rvpilot]

I've been watching this thread with interest. It seems that Dave and Vern have really hit home here. I just did a little internet shopping and found to put together the whole position/strobe light system, incuding the A500 tail/strobe combo light, cheap strobe kit and LED wing light system (assembled), you're gonna spend about $730.00. Van's sells the #6 light kit for $780.00. Is it worth saving $50.00 only to find out the system you've installed is not legal?? Not to me!
Seems like a lot more reg investigating is in order.
Bill Waters
RV8 with Creativeair tip landing lights and Van's System #6 Whelen light set

[ge9a]

I would like to hear from anyone regarding their experience with Creativair's wingtip landing lights. What do you like about them? What do you not like about them? It appears that the landing lights that Van's is now offering for the RV-10 are very similar to the Creativair offering. Mine will be going in a 9A, so any input on that application would be greatly appreciated. I like the looks of the Creativair lights, but the standard seems to be Duckworks lights. Can anyone offer a comparison? I don't think I'll go the HID route because I want to use a wig-wag flasher, even though the HID's are brighter and use less power - they're just too expensive for my blood.

Also, is there anything I need to watch out for if I use Van's "lighting system 6" for a strobe/position light kit? I'm sure Van's has all the bases covered with this system when using sheared wingtips, but there's nothing like advice from someone who has already been there.

Thanks in advance for the help.

[RudiGreyling]

Originally Posted by vlittle

<SNIP>...In the end, LED's are a great idea... but you must certify your installation to be legal for night flight...<SNIP>...Now, what we really need are LED landing lights!

Vern Little
RV-9A

Ditto...LED Landing lights!

With the plenty of LED torches and LED car headlamps coming on the market this should just be around the corner. This could be a great opportunity for the small time entrepreneur.


Just imagine a single integrated NAV & LANDING LED wing tip combo ala Creativair style with a nice shiny surface as shown by RV7_A above in his pictures. That would be so cool everyone would drool over your lights

[Captain_John]

Originally Posted by Thermos

Good point, Vern.

I did a little digging in the US FARs. FAR 91.205 requires "approved" position and anticollision lights for night VFR/IFR operations. In this case, my guess is that "approved" means certification via a TSO, STC or some other airworthiness approval process.

But can a DAR or FAA airworthiness inspector legally approve an LED lighting system as part of an amateur-built airworthiness inspection? Who knows...

Dave

Thermos,

What does "approved" mean? Can we safely say that when we are awarded out Airworthiness Certificate, the feds are "approving" the entire package as experimental category and thusly the lights are ultimately "approved".

I dunno? I am tempted to find out, at the cost of having to change the LED's out at a later date if I must.

Also, I agree that the landing lights are just that and landing lights are not required, but nevertheless... nice to have. Also nice to have is a good lamp to taxi with. This is especially true at an unfamiliar airfield!

Hmmmm, I wish SOMEONE would make up my mind!

I am getting distracted with all the facts!

CJ

[mlw450802]

Originally Posted by vlittle

...In the end, LED's are a great idea... but you must certify your installation to be legal for night flight...

I think simply verifying that your lights meet the FAR requirements is sufficient and should be a relatively easy task since the requirements are very specific and detailed. It looks to me like all you would need is a light meter, a protractor and a darkened hangar ( We are experimental aircraft builders after all).
I don't think they (the lights) need to be certified.
I also don't think the DAR or FAA examiners carry light meters to assure themselves that your lights meet the FAR requirements but they might appreciate the light intensity map that you generated above to convince them of the fact should the question arise.
It may even be possible that some of the suppliers have already generated such a map that might be available if you ask.
I intend to roll my own led nav lights and will certainly generate the intensity map to verify to myself that they meet or exceed the minimum regulations for intensity versus view angle.


-Mike

[Mel]

The DAR/FAA inspector does not certify the lighting system per sey. Your Operating Limitations will state that "After completion of phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with part 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated day VFR only." This puts the monkey on your back. If the aircraft is apporpriately equipped, you may fly at night.
Mel...DAR