Wassup With Avgas Prices?

MacNab · #1 08-21-2007, 10:54 AM

Don't know what everyone else here is experiencing, but auto gas prices in Arizona are creeping down to around $2.50/ga while the price of avgas is staying above $4.00 or creeping up. Avgas prices usually track about a dollar above mogas, but apparently not anymore.

People seem to be flying less around here as the price goes up, so supplies *should* be up too, placing downward pressure on the price...ain't happenin'. Are the oil companies producing less? Are prices staying elevated to keep retailers in business because of lack of demand? Is that last high priced load staying in the tank at many FBO's and cheaper fuel not been delivered and factored in yet?

It is hotter than heck around here and that has an obvious affect on flying, but I was seeing a reduction of activity at the airport long before it got really hot here in Phoenix. Hoping prices drop at least a bit in the near future, at least before we get raked over the coals with higher fuel taxes...or are those nice oil company folks just trying to get us used to higher prices when higher taxes kick in?

Glad we got an RV, it gets better gas mileage than my pickup truck...

Your thoughts?

rocketbob · #2 08-21-2007, 11:49 AM

I have a short answer for you: run mogas! I do and I don't have any trouble with it, been doing so for several hundred hours now. The key is to find an alcohol-free source. Depending on where you're at that may or may not be a problem. I get it from farm bureau and my O-360 runs just fine on 87 octane.

$1/gal savings x 9gph x 2000 hours = $18,000. Enough to cover an overhaul and then some.

vmirv8bldr · #3 08-21-2007, 11:50 AM

I know at least one fuel supplier that works on a first in first out basis. So they charge according to what they paid for the fuel, and prices don't go down until the next truckload fills the tanks. Conversely, they don't go up until the truck replenishes the tanks either.

frankh · #4 08-21-2007, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocketbob

I have a short answer for you: run mogas! I do and I don't have any trouble with it, been doing so for several hundred hours now. The key is to find an alcohol-free source. Depending on where you're at that may or may not be a problem. I get it from farm bureau and my O-360 runs just fine on 87 octane.

$1/gal savings x 9gph x 2000 hours = $18,000. Enough to cover an overhaul and then some.

I'm running a little conservative, I.e reduced the timing to 25BTDC max (easy with Emags) and running 92 octane on 8.5:1 CR. Runs the same as AVGAS except my Max EGT numbers seem a little higher, maybe because the timing has been turned down...I.e the charge ignited later thus running hotter out the exhaust...Just a theory.

Been doing this for 20 hours up to 12,000'...have not built a vapour pressure tester yet.

My wind my Max timing back up to 34 degrees for the next test.

Out of interest, has anyone tired alcohol laden fuel yet?...I have not seen a great argument for not using it other than its a rip off...i.e less range.

Frank 7a

N941WR · #5 08-21-2007, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankh

Out of interest, has anyone tired alcohol laden fuel yet?...I have not seen a great argument for not using it other than its a rip off...i.e less range.

Frank 7a

Frank,

Perform a search. Turns out there are three issues with gas-a-hol. First is that some of our aircraft components (carb, injectors, etc) don't play nice with alcohol. The second is that gas-a-hol is more susceptible to vapor lock, which can happen in flight. Third, alcohol absorbs water which can separate at altitude and either freeze in your lines or just collect in the bottom of the tanks.

Your call if you want to run it. If you do, please let us know how it works out.

az_gila · #6 08-21-2007, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacNab

Don't know what everyone else here is experiencing, but auto gas prices in Arizona are creeping down to around $2.50/ga while the price of avgas is staying above $4.00 or creeping up. Avgas prices usually track about a dollar above mogas, but apparently not anymore.
.....
Is that last high priced load staying in the tank at many FBO's and cheaper fuel not been delivered and factored in yet?

The wholesale price in Tucson has been steadily going down over the last few weeks.... but we don't adjust our Airpark prices until the next load comes in. I'm sure local FBOs do the same.
We have a 10,000 gallon tank, and fuel costs more if we don't buy a full tanker load of 8,000+ gallons.

Starting at 7-17
7-24 quote was 5 cents less
7-31 quote dropped 7 cents from previous week
8-7 quote - no change
8-14 quote dropped 8 cents from previous week

A 20 cent drop in 5 weeks, and I haven't got this weeks quote yet (it's due today)... hoping for another drop since our tank is getting low...

UPDATE... It went up a penny to-day...

Gil A. - one of the 57AZ fuel managers...

PS ...our fuel is delivered from Phoenix....

frankh · #7 08-21-2007, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N941WR

Frank,

Perform a search. Turns out there are three issues with gas-a-hol. First is that some of our aircraft components (carb, injectors, etc) don't play nice with alcohol. The second is that gas-a-hol is more susceptible to vapor lock, which can happen in flight. Third, alcohol absorbs water which can separate at altitude and either freeze in your lines or just collect in the bottom of the tanks.

Your call if you want to run it. If you do, please let us know how it works out.

Yup, I have the AFP system that is compaitble with anything.

More susceptable to vapour lock..Hmm, Yes I have a system that is almost impossible to VL (two electric pumps in the wingroots)...Have not doen altitude testing on Gas-o-hol yet though..i will check when I get around to making the VP tester.

The third issue is more of a potential show stopper...I might experiment with samples of water mixed with gasohol and stick 'em in the freezer to see what happens.

Interesting.

Thanks

frank

rph142 · #8 08-21-2007, 03:34 PM

I work for ConocoPhillips at the Wood River Refinery and i've asked several people this same question. Unfortunately, nobody gave me a clear answer. I think the basic answer is this: not all refineries make 100LL whereas all refineries make gasoline, the recent rise in gasoline prices was due to bottlenecking at the refineries..ie outages and really high demand. Of course when those gasoline making refineries came back online the price of gas went down...unfortunately the 100LL making refineries have been chugging along the whole time, therefore we have not seen an increase in production. Long story short...if youre shopping around for an engine you might want to consider one that can burn mogas. Of course i could be completely wrong.

hngrflyr · #9 08-21-2007, 07:18 PM

I use premium mogas in my airplane. Locally, there is more than $1.50 per gallon price difference.

MacNab · #10 08-21-2007, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hngrflyr

I use premium mogas in my airplane. Locally, there is more than $1.50 per gallon price difference.

No alcohol free mogas available here unless you're willing to fly to St. Johns...hmmm. That being said, we don't normally see such a large differential between the price of mogas and avgas. However, you can buy 100LL at Casa Grande for $3.50...it's a buck more at my home field. Makes one wonder what the actual wholesale price is running...