Chevy LS conversion.. what are your thoughts?

[Mike S]

IIRC, the big radial powered go-fast-turn-left guys have spray bars for cooling. Quite efficient, but not well suited for long flights.

Going fast is all about HP, which equals heat. At some time as more HP is made, air cooling just isnt up to the task.

Of course, the water is cooled by the air, so all of the engines are air cooled if you want to look at it that way.

Wow, this is fun. Now for the "Jeopardy" answer-----rooster.

Anybody got the question??

[rv6ejguy]

Originally Posted by Mike S

IIRC, the big radial powered go-fast-turn-left guys have spray bars for cooling. Quite efficient, but not well suited for long flights.

Going fast is all about HP, which equals heat. At some time as more HP is made, air cooling just isnt up to the task.

Of course, the water is cooled by the air, so all of the engines are air cooled if you want to look at it that way.

Wow, this is fun. Now for the "Jeopardy" answer-----rooster.

Anybody got the question??

All the fast Unlimiteds use spray bars to keep the engines alive and drag down. Quite right, at higher hp levels, an air cooled engine simply can't compete on a cubic inch/ hp basis which is why Porsche switched to water cooled heads and why it takes 3350 air cooled inches to beat 1650 water cooled ones at Reno.

The facts don't support the superiority of air cooled engines in any type of high specific output racing.

The thread started out asking about the feasibility of installing an LS engine in a Rocket. Certainly feasible, without doubt in my mind, performance would be superior to a 260-300hp IO-540 with a slight weight penalty.

[Yukon]

Ross, that's not really good logic about the Porsche. They also went to rear wheel drive and forward mounted engine and nearly bankrupted the company.
There's nothing to rival the mid-engine air-cooled 911 for weight distribution and handling. Water-cooling makes the car quieter, and probably longer lived due to temperature stability, but most people don't consider the 928 or Boxster to be any great improvement over the 911 and 930.

I sold my 911 to make room in my garage for this airplane project. When I'm done, I'm going to replace it with a 930.

[rv6ejguy]

Originally Posted by Yukon

Ross, that's not really good logic about the Porsche. They also went to rear wheel drive and forward mounted engine and nearly bankrupted the company.
There's nothing to rival the mid-engine air-cooled 911 for weight distribution and handling. Water-cooling makes the car quieter, and probably longer lived due to temperature stability, but most people don't consider the 928 or Boxster to be any great improvement over the 911 and 930.

I sold my 911 to make room in my garage for this airplane project. When I'm done, I'm going to replace it with a 930.

Nope, I'm taking race cars here. The once mighty 962s were humbled and defeated in IMSA GTP by first the VG30 powered Nissans and then the all conquering AAR 2.1L Toyotas. There is no comparison in terms of specific output and power density when it comes to air vs. liquid cooled engines. How many air cooled engines are winning in the upper echelons of auto racing today? Zero.

The writing is on the wall in the Sport Class where John Parker's qualifying record stunned the air cooled guys in the class. The Thunder Mustang is clearly a much draggier airframe than the NXTs and Lancairs so it was making a LOT more hp. This is only the beginning of what can be unleashed by the Falconer V12. DG and others are losing pistons and struggling to keep **** and CHTs below critical zones with massive amounts of spray bar water, ADI and reworked fuel systems. I know what the Conti guys are up against, I'm assisting a Sport Class entry at Reno this year. Should be a great race, no matter who wins.

In a class where air and liquid cooled engines are the same displacement, ultimately air cooled engines don't stand a chance in equal airframes against liquid cooled ones. The supercharged Falconer V12 in an NXT would easily do a 400mph lap even at 2006 hp levels.

I don't think the LS engines have the physical strength to be competitive in the Sport Class any more but maybe we will see what they can do when David Algie's plane hits the circuit. An LS2 or LS6 would make a fine engine for a Rocket... now if I wasn't still working on the RV10...

[Yukon]

Sorry Ross, you didn't mention race cars per se in your post, just thought you were pi$$ing on the boxer aircooled motor I so love! I don't think water cooling did anything but make Porshe sports cars heavier and less responsive. Come to think of it, that sounds like Subie power, huh?

How's the project coming? Done with the cabin area yet? So far I have made every piece of aluminum on the slider canopy twice, but it's going to be perfect when I am done!

[Mel]

Originally Posted by Mike S

Wow, this is fun. Now for the "Jeopardy" answer-----rooster.

Anybody got the question??

What kind of tail does a jet-ski leave?

[rv6ejguy]

A good friend has a 930 with plenty of chassis and engine mods and a proper turbo and intercooler. It is pretty impressive now and he has taken FTD in Solo 1 at the race track numerous times- very fast for a street car. Got respect for these old engines.

I have been awaiting some custom parts to finish off aft of the baggage bay before closing that area in with the top skin. Cabin top is in place and ready to pull a few hundred rivets and tighten the bolts. Maybe by the end of September I'll be trial fitting the wings, then on to the doors. Can't wait!

Still lots of work to do.

[TSwezey]

Originally Posted by rv6ejguy

I have been awaiting some custom parts to finish off aft of the baggage bay before closing that area in with the top skin. Cabin top is in place and ready to pull a few hundred rivets and tighten the bolts. Maybe by the end of September I'll be trial fitting the wings, then on to the doors. Can't wait!

Still lots of work to do.

I still haven't put that last top skin on yet. We have a lot of avionics back there and we aren't sealing it up until it all works. It never seems to end. I am tempted to skip the body work and paint and go fly the thing. Hopefully all our wiring will be finished tomorrow and I can actually start the plane using a key instead of hot wiring it. Plus it doesn't help that it is 100 degrees with 80 to 90 percent humidity. Thank god I put AC in the thing. Another plus for the Chevy LS engine.

[gmcjetpilot]

Originally Posted by rv6ejguy

Gary Spencer's Ford powered LongEze has entered and won numerous cross country races. Here is one link: http://www.ez.org/Flyer/0700_03.htm I see some later race speeds in excess of 242mph. Not too shabby for a direct drive auto engine.

Bud Warren's Wheeler Express (SBC) (700+ hours) uses a Hartzell C/S and his drives are capable any using any hydraulic prop. I think the new Variprop will be seen on many more auto conversions because no governor is required on the drive.

Yes that is cool a V8 in a LongEz! Wow! I noticed the speed is right there (but faster by 1 mph) than the IO360 competition, but still numbers and races don't lie. That is a good example. How he stuffed it in that little plane I don't know. I like the idea of a direct drive BIG V8, but than you get into the harmonics of the prop and crank. I saw the Wheeler video on YouTube. Pretty cool. Love to know the numbers, cost, weight, speed, fuel burn compared to say a Lyc IO360 or TCM IO360 which is the standard for that plane. It did sound smooth like a Vee-Eight should.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLjDX...elated&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln3BUn3rIQQ

I think P51s have won more unlimited races at Reno than any other type. Correct me if I'm wrong someone. Dago Red holds the race record at 507 mph set in 2003. The Thunder Mustang holds the absolute piston speed record for naturally aspirated aircraft and the fastest race and qualifying lap in the Sport Class.

Yes you are probably right. I thought fastest all time was a Grumman F8F Bearcat @ 528.33 mph (849.55 km/h) 21 August 1989, piston plane record. Normally aspirated I don't know. By the way the Thunder Mustang has a custom V-10 Falconer Engine. It is a race engine for sure, just for the record. How much did they fly it after the record before tear down> hummmm

Reno wise, I was just going on all the double row radial Hawker Sea Furys and Bearcats dominating Reno. In 2006, finials, 6 of the top 7, gold unlimited, where air-cooled sea furys, the other was a yak 11, also air cooled. The fastest P-51 was 90 mph slower than the #1 guy in the gold class, "232 September Fury" @ 481 mph. The fast P-51 was "38 Precious Metal", 2nd in the silver class. The poor P-51 V-12's are working so hard to make HP, verses the mass cubic inches of the big Pratt & Whitney R-2800 "Double Wasp" two-row radial. The P-51 is over 1000 cubic inch less displacement. Here are the 2006 reno results.

http://www.airrace.org/2006ResultsDisplay.php

I'd dispute that most of the fastest WW2 aircraft were air cooled. While the fastest was the XP47 mainly because it had excellent turbocharging and intercooler technology and 3000hp, the fastest operational aircraft were all liquid cooled.

What about the Gloster Meteor and Messerschmitt Me 262. Ha-ha got you, neither are water cooled, they're jets. You are right again darn it, but I found two water cooled odd ball contenders to the P-51 about the same speed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do_335
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Hornet

Your arguments don't hold any water...pun intended.

Ouch I hate it when you are right. Too bad the jets came when they did. Piston development would have gone....... who knows where if it was at the for front of research and development.

Not bashing Lycomings, just relaying the experiences of the tow plane guys in Oz and rebuttling the comment made by someone that people were removing auto engines to replace them with aircraft engines. It amazes me that many people think that Lycomings never fail and never need work. The reality is that many do. I know dozens of people who replace jugs, pistons, valves etc. on their engines well before TBO. This is pretty common and one of the reasons people consider alternatives. Cylinder, case cracks are a common occurrence on the higher hp turbo Conti and Lyco engines. Installing the LS engines in the PA25s are as a result of the straight economics of it for this abusive application. A whole engine is the price of 2 jugs for an IO.

It is harder to compete with the weight of the 4 cylinder Lycomings but as the engines become more powerful, the weight gap closes. Bud's 383 weighs 454 lbs. with all accessories except rad and prop. This was lighter than the less powerful twin turbo IO-540 setup normally fitted. The normally aspirated V8s will often be replacing 300-350hp turbocharged IO-540 and IO-550s which are much heavier. Compared to an atmo IO-540, even the LS engines are going to be heavier- no dispute there.

I won, I won I won, you said no dispute! Yippee. ha-ha Ross good points. I would love to see these big V8 engines more, but not many personal sport planes have use for 350 HP. Yes I said it, they have no use for HP. Well you know what I mean, the airframe needs to be be suitable is size and capacity. Capacity in hauling stuff or handling higher speed and engine weight.

I would disagree 350 hp continuous may be a little much for a chevy 360 cid, however 260 HP, sure. It is amazing Chevy can sell these aluminum block/head Corvette engines for $3000-$6,200. Weight and performance are all a little mysterious to me. Its hard to find data and some just will not tell you what it weighs. I have to subscribe to Contact magazine. Ever since EAA killed the experimenter there is nothing about real experimentation.

You will not get the rated power from a typical crate motor unless you are willing to spin it up to 6000rpm so people can forget the 400 hp part. I feel the stock LS6 is a solid 300-325hp engine for aircraft use at a reasonable rpm. Warren's drive weighs 63 lbs. EPIs are 10-20 lbs. more depending on model.

63 lbs is way less than I would thought, even 83 lbs. Drives like Real World Solution's units weigh 45 lbs, and that's just for 160/180 HP Wankel's. I assume as HP goes up, gear box weight goes up and 350 HP is a lot. Turbo prop-jets have several 1000's of hp and gear reductions, and they work fine. The only deal with piston engines is all those individual pounding pistons, verses turbine smoothness, which is harder on gear box/reduction drives plus harmonics.

Complex cooling systems? No. A look at Warren's simple single rad setup makes this part even less complicated than the typical Lycoming.

The liquid cooled world is changing fast with some smart people applying their talents and proving them by accumulating lots of flight hours now. In many cases, they are making products available for other users. More and more people are choosing auto conversions than ever before- they can't all be dumb.

I am a believer, I am a believer, my Lycoming O-360 is for sale, I am an auto engine convert ......... you beat me down.....ha-ha. Here is my new engine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU2elPTJyqA (Now that is an engine)

OK Race for pink slips! Ha-ha not really, but I always wanted to say that. No one called any one dumb Ross, . The only smart thing I can think to say, after you whipped me in this debate, , the airframe and engine have to match, i.e., an airframe made around the engine. Look at the P-51 or those two odd balls I list above, the airframes where made with the engine in mind. Most conversions are replacing an aircooled engine. Again dumb or not, I can't wait to see more (water) cool stuff, especially big V8's and of course your Turbo Subaru RV-10 with P-51 scoop, vaaaaaroooooom. That is going to be cool, water cooled.......(pun intended).

[TSwezey]

Note this day in History. George has put up the white flag! Congrats to Ross!