Training in experimentals

McFly · #1 08-07-2007, 03:45 PM

During hanger flying the other day, a discussion came up about training in experimental (amateur built) aircraft and nobody could agree.

1) Is it legal to get primary training in an experimental aircraft?

2) Is it legal to get IFR training in an experimental aircraft?

3) Is it legal to fly IFR in an experimental aircraft equipped with non certified instruments and radios?

I have a beer riding on ?yes?, ?yes? and ?yes?. Am I buying?

johnp · #2 08-07-2007, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McFly

During hanger flying the other day, a discussion came up about training in experimental (amateur built) aircraft and nobody could agree.

1) Is it legal to get primary training in an experimental aircraft?

2) Is it legal to get IFR training in an experimental aircraft?

3) Is it legal to fly IFR in an experimental aircraft equipped with non certified instruments and radios?

I have a beer riding on ?yes?, ?yes? and ?yes?. Am I buying?

1. yes, if the owner of the xper is the one being trained. (not legal for a cfi/owner to offer primary training in his own xper craft -- may be certain exceptions.)

2. yes, same deal.

3. xpndr & elt must meet tso. in addition, gps approach hardware (probably) must meet tso (you'll find a disagreement on this.) otherwise, non-tso'd stuff is fine for xper.

this is my opinion from research i have done. i'm sure others will flame me mercilessly.

oh, and for 1 and 2, you may have a problem finding a dpe to give the checkride -- it used to be even harder.

rmartingt · #3 08-07-2007, 04:13 PM

It is possible to instruct in your own experimental, but you have to jump through a bunch of hoops to get the signoff to do it. Avweb had an article on it one time; one guy was using his breezy to give multi instruction.

RV6_flyer · #4 08-07-2007, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnp

3. xpndr & elt must meet tso. in addition, gps approach hardware (probably) must meet tso (you'll find a disagreement on this.) otherwise, non-tso'd stuff is fine for xper.

this is my opinion from research i have done. i'm sure others will flame me mercilessly.

oh, and for 1 and 2, you may have a problem finding a dpe to give the checkride -- it used to be even harder.

The KEY word in #3 above is MEET. They do not have to be TSO'ed. The transponder and encoder MUST be tested every two years. (91.411 / 91.413) If it passes the test, you are good to go. Same with navigation equipment. VOR 30 day tests that are logged.

bjustus · #5 08-07-2007, 06:03 PM

It is legal to do primary in your experimental, but an aircraft of the current RV series would not be a good plane to learn in. RVs are not "hard" to fly, but they are not a first-step airplane either.

The light sport RV in development will be a different story -- should be a great trainer.

Another possibility would be to buy a Cherokee to train in. They can be purchased quite cheaply and if you buy right you can sell it for what you have in it when you're done. Cherokee is a good prep for the RVs because of similar hershey-bar wing, etc. but slower, tamer to learn in. (After getting used to the anemic climb rate of the Cherokee it will make you appreciate the RV even more when you get it!)

Brett

ATP CFII MEI

godspeed · #6 08-07-2007, 06:44 PM

Does the owner experimental need to have the 40 hours or can the Cfi choose if he is willing to do it or not ? say after he has flown it himself for 10 -20 hours ? what about a RV9a ? whats legal ?

Danny..

RV6_flyer · #7 08-07-2007, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by godspeed

Does the owner experimental need to have the 40 hours or can the Cfi choose if he is willing to do it or not ? say after he has flown it himself for 10 -20 hours ? what about a RV9a ? whats legal ?

Danny..

I think you are asking if the owner can get flight training while the amateur built experimental is still in its phase I test phase.

The answer is NO.

See FAA Order 8130.2F Change 3 for what the current requirements are.

The Inspector or DAR is REQUIRED to use what is in the Order. They can add MORE restrictions but they CANNOT remove the required limitations listed in the order. The present order says: "During the flight testing phase, no person may be carried in this aircraft during flight unless that person is essential to the purpose of the flight."

See Section 153 page 163 item number 10.

Any pilot that is rated, current, and legal can fly the experimental aircraft SOLO for the phase I flight testing. INSTRUCTION cannot LEGALLY be given during Phase I.

az_gila · #8 08-07-2007, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RV6_flyer

The KEY word in #3 above is MEET. They do not have to be TSO'ed. The transponder and encoder MUST be tested every two years. (91.411 / 91.413) If it passes the test, you are good to go. Same with navigation equipment. VOR 30 day tests that are logged.

Gary... no way does the operational test you get at the avionics shop prove that your transponder meets the TSO. It's just an operational test.

I think the key phrase is "meet the requirements of the TSO"

The complete TSO is here...

Link to TSO C47

....and includes such items as spurious emissions, vibration and temperature sensitivity.
These are not tested for your $250 or so at the avionics shop.
The design must meet the TSO, which would require much testing at great $$ expense... think of a bid at Hughes to meet all of the TSO items listed in the document - I bet millions...

I don't think transponders and ELTs are "roll your own" devices, even for EEs...

... but keep up those regular "operational tests".

gil in Tucson

RV6_flyer · #9 08-07-2007, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by az_gila

Gary... no way does the operational test you get at the avionics shop prove that your transponder meets the TSO. It's just an operational test.

I think the key phrase is "meet the requirements of the TSO"

The complete TSO is here...

Link to TSO C47

....and includes such items as spurious emissions, vibration and temperature sensitivity.
These are not tested for your $250 or so at the avionics shop.
The design must meet the TSO, which would require much testing at great $$ expense... think of a bid at Hughes to meet all of the TSO items listed in the document - I bet millions...

I don't think transponders and ELTs are "roll your own" devices, even for EEs...

... but keep up those regular "operational tests".

gil in Tucson

Gil:

You are reading into this something that is implied. We are separated by the ENGLISH language. I am NOT a lawyer but a layman stating the facts in as few words as possible. I said the same thing that you did but with less words.

Encoder can be "roll your own" as the microEncoder is one such device.

mitchw62 · #10 08-07-2007, 10:07 PM

[quote=McFly]During hanger flying the other day, a discussion came up about training in experimental (amateur built) aircraft and nobody could agree.

1) Is it legal to get primary training in an experimental aircraft?

What do you think about:
- Buy/build an RV12 or Sonex or S16
- Sell ownership shares say 1% for $250+
- Charge a monthly and hourly fee to all owners.
- Owners can learn to fly or build time, or sport pilot around.