Possible RV Search and Rescue (SAR) group?

[gorbak]

First, let me say how sorry I am for the family. I am involved in Civil Air Patrol as a pilot and also the Emergency Services Officer of our local squadron. I have three "finds" and been involved in numerous outings in search of ELT's and two actual searches where other squadrons located the crash sites. Aircraft are difficult to find even when the ELT is picked up by satellite and is audible to air and ground searchers. Sometimes, the signal is obscured by terrain or other man made structures. Sometimes there are ELT malfunctions, bad batteries, or damage to antenna beyond usable condition.
Last month, our squadron performed "ramp checks" for an overdue airplane in Missouri where the pilot had filed a flight plan to spend the evening. The plane was not where it should have been. The plane was located in Mississippi, pilot alive, after waiting for two days hanging upside down in a pine tree forest. He was happy to see CAP. The ELT signal was weak as the plane was upside down, antenna destroyed in the crash, but was still sending a signal as it should. Even with the signal, it took two days of persistence to locate. And that is with an ELT signal. If terrain is rugged, a signal, if existent, can bounce around structures and not be picked up by the satellite system, ground or air searchers. As we just learned, even "hits" on a transponder or radar can be misleading. It is not easy to find a plane in a remote location.
My best friend went down near Crater Lake in the Oregon wilderness. IFR flight, radar, radio communications prior to the crash and a massive search did not locate this aircraft with three aboard. It was found by hunters....seven years later. There was not an ELT signal acquired. Sometimes, even with best efforts, it is hard to find a plane.

Pat Garboden
Ozark, MO
RV9A 942WG (reserved)
RV9A 942PT (reserved)

[Ron Lee]

Someone mentioned very high winds in that area. Low altitude flight over mountains in that case would not be the best way to go.

[Harland E. [n.m. u.s.a.]]

What I find INCREDIBLE is the fact that Texas and New Mexico authorities were not in communication together about this.The fact that we were talking about this for months and assuming that everything that could be done was being done yet New Mexico state police werent in on it and apparently oblivious.I would like to think that if I went down near a border that both states would be involved with the search operation regardless of where the last transponder hit was.From what I heard from my father ,second-hand, the santa fe paper said that once N.M. state police were involved they found the plane within 48 hours.We should not assume that the authorities are allways clued in.John Denko(cabinet secretary of the Department of Public Safety) made this happen quickly once informed,this in my experience with him also as he was the man who found my brothers body after he was killed in an auto crash and his remains were taken away without anyone knowing where the heck he went for three days....he's a good guy.I'm happy for the family's closure,it would have driven me nuts waiting that long.

[CNEJR]

I am sorry for the family's loss. I can completely understand the length of time to find the Airplane. 12 years ago July 4th 1995, I had to personally go find the wreckage of Bonanza N20239 in the Mountains Near Bremmerton, WA. It had been down since 6/20/95. The airplane was piloted by my brother and his wife. Civil Air Patrol & County Rescue had searched for it for two weeks with no result. When they quit looking, I went to the area with a friend and a cheap Wal Mart GPS, calculated their location looking at FAA data to within fifty feet. I found them on July 4th with no assistance from anybody in very deep woods. The only thing I got from local authorites is threats of putting me in jail for tresspassing in National Forest "after the find", it made them look bad.

The final truth is "You have to really want to accomplish something, you can't depend on anyone to care as much as you would in this situation." One of the county rescuers said after the find, "We were going to search that little area, but it was just to much trouble." I agree it was tough searching, but I wanted it so much for my mother & father. Others just don't care enough.

[kentb]

For any who have not seen a airplane crash from the air before, it doesn't look like an airplane. The only real CAP find that I was involved with, was next to an open field with some trees on the edge of the field. We had flown over this area three times already at about 500 ft and 75 kts. This time the sun was just right that we saw a glint of metal. The plane from the air didn't look like a plane.

It is not easy to search from the air, and this is why CAP does a lot of training.

Kent

[Mike S]

Originally Posted by CNEJR

Others just don't care enough.

I am sorry for your loss, I know it is still a sore subject even after 12 years.

But I am more than a little offended by the comment above.

Others dont care as much, perhaps, but please remember that most search efforts are largely staffed by volunteers who care enough about someone they have never met, to spent the time, effort, and $$ to search.

I know, I am one of them. I have been involved in S/R both as a career fireman, and volunteered on my own time.

Mike

[Ron Lee]

I don't recall the pilots age so it never came up as a consideration. The reported high winds over mountains seems far more likely and is why people who are not familiar with mountain flying need to know about the hazards and how to avoid them.

Last evening a flatlander pilot landed (multiple times on one approach) at our airport and the last landing caused significant damage to his LSA plane. Likely factors are unfamiliarity with the impact of ~9000' density altitude on landing groundspeed, fatigue, hypoxia. age, etc.

Perhaps the main issue was the high density altitude and higher than expected groundspeed. Regardless, it was probably a preventable incident. Fortunately, the pilot was not injured and people were at the scene within minutes to help.

[Ralph Kramden]

Originally Posted by Mike S

I am sorry for your loss, I know it is still a sore subject even after 12 years.

But I am more than a little offended by the comment above.

Others dont care as much, perhaps, but please remember that most search efforts are largely staffed by volunteers who care enough about someone they have never met, to spent the time, effort, and $$ to search.

I know, I am one of them. I have been involved in S/R both as a career fireman, and volunteered on my own time.

Mike

Just a point of reference here about what it takes to make one's self ready to help in a search and rescue effort.

It was this crash that got me interested in joining CAP. That was back in March. I have had to attend weekly two hour meetings for the past three months, had to be around to wash the airplane, had to put aside a weekend to be on a training mission, had to spend many hours reading CAP regs and taking online tests. And, I had to spend several hundred dollars on uniforms and materials. All this just so I can sit in the BACK seat of a 172 and search for victims should the call ever come.

Since I'd like to do more than just sit in the back seat, I will need to spend time getting ready for the checkride - something about the same level as an FAA checkride, which will require me to spend time in a rental plane (at my own expense of course) before I am ready for the checkride. Then, I will need to build hours (60 in my case at my own expense but then that will be able to be done in a cheap CAP plane) in order to have enough experience to start *training* as a mission pilot. Another 25 hours after that before I would be considered qualified to fly a mission without another mission pilot along in the right seat.

All in all, not a small amount of effort required just to be in a position where I could be ready to be called upon to go and search for someone needing rescue. At any hour of the day or night and on short notice. I am not complaining, in fact I am rather happy that I found out about CAP and I am eager to help, but please understand that there is a great deal of work and time involved in order to be ready to serve.

By the way, all this time preparing for CAP has cut into my RV building time - I haven't been able to make any progress on it since April. I am just now getting back to work on it.

-- Ralph

[dwilson]

Had a friend, young guy in his early 30's with lots of time in the air die a couple of years ago in a 172 that just sort of flew into the ground.

Turns out he had carbon monoxide poisoning. Big crack in the heat exchanger.

I have been battling carbon monoxide in my cockpit ever since I finished my RV9A. Just low levels mind you, but there none the less.

It makes me wonder how many others have been effected and crashed due to "pilot error" when in fact the pilot was impaired by CO?

Duane Wilson, M.D.

[gorbak]

Since I'd like to do more than just sit in the back seat, I will need to spend time getting ready for the checkride - something about the same level as an FAA checkride, which will require me to spend time in a rental plane (at my own expense of course) before I am ready for the checkride. Then, I will need to build hours (60 in my case at my own expense but then that will be able to be done in a cheap CAP plane) in order to have enough experience to start *training* as a mission pilot. Another 25 hours after that before I would be considered qualified to fly a mission without another mission pilot along in the right seat.

Ralph identifies a lot of the effort required prior to serving as a qualified CAP volunteer. In addition, all CAP pilots must pass a written exam (form 5), an oral exam (1-1 1/2 hours) and a flight exam, which exceeds the FAA private pilot profeciency flight test. All this is required ANNUALLY. This is in addition to two hour weekly meetings for classroom instruction. Well worth the effort and I tip my hat to all volunteers.

Pat Garboden
Ozark, MO