XM Weather / TFR's not up to date????

[ScottSchmidt]

I'm new to the XM weather world using a Garmin 396. I must admit that my first flight with XM weather as it pertains to TFR's was not impressive. Today my wife and I flew up to West Yellowstone for the day to drop off a couple of friends and to fly around Yellowstone and the Island Park area. Checked the faa.gov sight last night and noticed that Dick Cheney is at his Jackson Hole home this week and there was a TFR over the area. Called FSS early this morning and they confirmed the TFR over Jackson Hole and also said that the TFR just north of West Yellowstone was recently lifted. This was a TFR for a fire. When I hopped in the RV this morning and fired up the XM, there was no TFR over Jackson and it still showed the TFR north of West Yellowstone as active. I understand that we need to always call FSS but I would think that the most important piece of information that the XM folks should think about is TFR's especially presidential TFR's. For $50/month I was pretty let down today by their updates. Of course the in-flight TAF,METAR,NEXRAD,........ is really cool. Just showed the importance of always calling FSS before a flight even though you think you have it covered with your XM system.

You guys seen the same issues or was this an isolated incident?


Also heard something very interesting that happened to a Bonanza pilot who was flying near the Jackson Hole TFR. He was approaching Jackson from the south and was not even close to the TFR and was intercepted by a Blackhawk just as a precautionary measure and was escorted well around the TFR. Now this presidential TFR only included the airspace up to 3000 ft. agl. I was considering popping up to 12,500 on the way home and flying right over Jackson but after I heard that story it made me think differently. It actually made me a little upset that our military is intercepting pilots (and he knew about the TFR and was going to stay southwest of it) well outside of TFR's and escorting them even though they were not even close to piercing the TFR. It is hard to imagine how much money is spent by tax payers just to have Dick stay at his Jackson Hole home over the holidays. Just think, there is a Blackhawk consuming over 100 gph, 24 hours per day over Jackson as we speak with who knows how many support people on the ground.

Anyway, those are my two TFR experiences today that I thought I would share. Hope you all had a great 4th of July! It was a great flying day here and was happy to have spent it in the air.

[Ironflight]

Hi Scott,

I have to admit that I haven't seen a problem with the TFR's on XM....but at the same time, I really haven't looked for them, because I haven't really thought about the XM being my primary TFR info source.....(and with some of the problems the FAA and DHS has in getting the info on TFR's out, I am not sure that there is a totally dependable source!)

It would be interesting to know how XM gets the TFR data, and if it requires people to massage it before getting into the system, or if it is totally automated. My guess is that the XM puts out whatever was "in the system" and that the system broke down upstream.

But as you wisely pointed out - know the TFR's before you launch! (I get real nervous anytime I am around WACO....)

Paul

[cytoxin]

Originally Posted by ScottSchmidt

It actually made me a little upset that our military is intercepting pilots (and he knew about the TFR and was going to stay southwest of it) well outside of TFR's and escorting them even though they were not even close to piercing the TFR.

did this actually happen if so id love to hear the details.

Originally Posted by ScottSchmidt

It is hard to imagine how much money is spent by tax payers just to have Dick stay at his Jackson Hole home over the holidays. Just think, there is a Blackhawk consuming over 100 gph, 24 hours per day over Jackson as we speak with who knows how many support people on the ground.

this has never bothered me much as these guys would be burning up fuel training somewhere else anyway..

[mburch]

Originally Posted by Ironflight

It would be interesting to know how XM gets the TFR data, and if it requires people to massage it before getting into the system, or if it is totally automated.

I know a bit about how it works, and it's a little convoluted... as it was explained to me, there are actually a couple guys at the FAA who hand-enter TFR data into a second system that's separate from the one that runs tfr.faa.gov. That data then is shipped off to another provider, and the data changes hands a couple times again before it gets to XM for transmission to you.

So, there are multiple places in the chain of custody for things to get tangled up, and since the data is entered by hand there can occasionally be typos, omissions, etc. Since there is human involvement in the process, it pays to double-check TFR data through another source if you're going to be flying on a holiday or any other time there might not be anyone home at the FAA.

Incidentally, I think this is related to why there was a change in late '05 to the way NFL stadium TFR's were handled. They used to be really nice and put in individual records for each football game as it was scheduled to happen, so the TFRs would come and go correctly as the games happened. Then I guess they got tired of doing all that work, so they changed the stadium TFR's to show up in the system as permanent - less typing that way.

Of course, the fact that the FAA office in charge of creating the source data is so many links up the chain from the system that retransmits it also means that if you call XM to complain about TFR data, your request is unlikely to make it all the way to the place where it would do any good.

Still, for all its faults, I think having any kind of TFR data in the cockpit is another incredible tool for us pilots to add to our toolboxes. But just like in IFR flying, be careful not to rely completely on only one source of information!

cheers,
mcb

[Brantel]

A Blackhawk would have a hard time catching a slick RV

Back in the early 90's, when I was a crew chief on a Blackhawk, we estimated our cost per hour to operate the beast at around $5K per hour. Of course this was taking into concideration that we were replacing main rotor blades and engines at a rate of about every 100 hours due to the sand eating them over in the Gulf. Must be double that now. This did not incude the original ~$7,000,000 price tag for a new basic model.

[L.Adamson]

Originally Posted by cytoxin

this has never bothered me much as these guys would be burning up fuel training somewhere else anyway..

So very true. These pilots are in constant training these days; as I live next to a National Guard airport (U42), which is 20 miles down the road from Scott's (KBTF).

It's now either U.S. military choppers or civilian training choppers............all day long!

L.Adamson

[jmartinez443]

Originally Posted by Brantel

A Blackhawk would have a hard time catching a slick RV

The missile my be a little faster

[ScottSchmidt]

QUOTE]did this actually happen if so id love to hear the details[/quote]

This did happen. The Bonanza pilot landed at West Yellowstone just before I did and knew the FBO operators. He apparently was going to stay just south of the TFR. I was amazed the Blackhawk was able to keep up with that plane. Make sure you know and understand the intercept procedures. I don't know all the details but I do know it shook them up a little.


I also want to mention how nice the folks are at West Yellowstone Aviation. She met me at the taxiway on her bike and pulled me right in. They will take you into town and come pick you up in their white mini-van.

I know a bit about how it works, and it's a little convoluted... as it was explained to me, there are actually a couple guys at the FAA who hand-enter TFR data into a second system that's separate from the one that runs tfr.faa.gov. That data then is shipped off to another provider, and the data changes hands a couple times again before it gets to XM for transmission to you.

This is just a confirmation that the system is quite convoluted. With all the talk about fees and FSS stations charging for a briefing I don't understand why there has been no talk about using the internet and satellite technology to create certified systems that make it not only easier to check notams, TFR's, and weather but also make it cheaper and more meaningful. I understand that people fight hard for their jobs and it is sad when a FSS closes down like the one featured in this months EAA magazine but the verbal briefing is a little outdated. Personally I used duat 50% of the time to get my weather and standard briefing (which is 100% legal). I also check the faa website for a visual of TFR's, and AWC-Aviation Weather Center for a visual of the weather. So I visit three different sites, print up around 15 pages of paper for every cross country flight. Looks like ADS-B may be exactly what we are looking for.
I still laugh about something Burt Rutan said at one of his forums. He was discussing the METAR system and how complicated that is to understand. It is basically another language you have to learn. He mentioned how you can pull up beautiful pictures of naked women, but for weather we have know what KSLC 051656Z 02007KT 10SM FEW090 SCT250 33/08 A3013 RMK AO2 SLP140 T03280078 means. Humans are visual yet we don't leverage that in aviation. We are moving that way, it is just a very slow process.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about the system because the current system does work. It is sometimes very nice to talk with a briefer instead of the duat briefing print out. (80% of which I have no idea what it says) I just think it would be cool to pull up a visual briefing on an iPhone with accurate information all from one place.

We need someone from this group to get to know the guy who is in charge of TFR updates at XM. I really would not be that hard to check the TFR system against the FAA system every 6 hours. Not much really changes from day to day.


I will post some pics from yesterdays flight. What a beautiful area and a great place to have a cabin. Anyone ever land at Henry's Lake grass strip?

[ScottSchmidt]

West Yellowstone airport and town





Old Faithful


Henry's Lake grass strip in the distance


Island Park area

[lostpilot28]

Originally Posted by Brantel

A Blackhawk would have a hard time catching a slick RV

Back in the early 90's, when I was a crew chief on a Blackhawk, we estimated our cost per hour to operate the beast at around $5K per hour. Of course this was taking into concideration that we were replacing main rotor blades and engines at a rate of about every 100 hours due to the sand eating them over in the Gulf. Must be double that now. This did not incude the original ~$7,000,000 price tag for a new basic model.

In the early '90s I was an avionics tech (actually did almost everything) on F/A-18s in the Navy at Cecil Field in Florida. With a centerline tank we would top them off with 12,400 lbs of jet fuel (over 2000 gallons). They would burn through that in an hour - including takeoff and landing. With the price of fuel per gallon, those things cost about $6,000 an hour in fuel alone!