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  #71  
Old 08-31-2007, 10:41 PM
redbeardmark redbeardmark is offline
 
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Location: EDVK
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Default 3 points

Went to Van's Homecoming and witnessed many 3 point landings by trikes... yikes.

NTSB report stated 370 lb empty nosewheel weight and bad things happening at loads over 1,000 lbs... a 3G landing on the nosewheel.

Surely we can all do better than that.

Invest in transition training.
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RV8A N598X
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  #72  
Old 09-01-2007, 09:09 AM
Bryan Wood's Avatar
Bryan Wood Bryan Wood is offline
 
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Default Expedition E350 nosegear

For those of you who get the "Pilot Getaways" magazine there is an interesting picture of the nose gear of a plane called an Expedition E350 in the July/August 2007 issue. In fact there is an entire article about the airplane and how rugged it is. The E350 is a 4 place high wing with a free castoring nosewheel that looks very much like our "A" model right down to the gear leg fairing and wheel pant. What caught my eye is a picture on page 28, picture number 3. The motor mount has a linkage built into it with a shock absorber consisting of rubber doughnuts much like the ones in Mooney main landing gear. There is a pivoting or sorts that can happen to absorb loads. This plane is being marketed for its ruggedness and back country capabilities leading me to believe there is something to this design for the nosegear. It looks like a simple and light solution to some of the accidents or incidents and wouldn't be crazy expensive to undertake.

Expedition does have a web site, http://www.expeditionaircraft.com/ but there were not any photos of the nose gear when I looked a few weeks ago. But for those of you with the magazine what do you think? Could this somehow help us?

Blue skies,
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Last edited by Bryan Wood : 09-01-2007 at 09:11 AM. Reason: add link
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  #73  
Old 09-01-2007, 11:40 AM
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lostpilot28 lostpilot28 is offline
 
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Location: Boise, ID
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Smile Weak nosegear?

I'm not sure how similar of a nosegear this is, but below is a picture of the PulsarXP I recently owned. Note the very small nosegear leg. I always got questioned by people on the ramp about how sturdy it was. I believe it was 3/4" diameter solid steel tube, but it had a shock absorber at the top that allowed it to pivot forward.

Funny thing is, this gear didn't have problems but builders were always worried about its appearance and actually added fairings or (as in the 2nd picture below) glued balsa to the aft side to make it appear bigger.

I know it's a lighter aircraft and all (1100 lb gross), but it's also a smaller gear leg. I think the fact that the shock absorber was there helped a lot. I made plenty of crappy landings in the beginning, and the fellow I sold it to made plenty of hard 3-pointers, too. It's held up on lots of Pulsars for the last 15-20 years.

Sorry if this isn't an apples-to-apples comparison...I just wanted to point out the use of the shock absorber.




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Last edited by lostpilot28 : 09-01-2007 at 11:44 AM.
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  #74  
Old 09-01-2007, 12:39 PM
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pczar3 pczar3 is offline
 
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Location: Bolingbrook, Illiniois
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Default I spoke to Vans at Oshkosh

I quietly walked up and started talking to Tom outside the tent when he was catching a breath of cool air. I asked about the NTSB study and he said they, Vans, asked the NTSB to look at the nose gear. He said they check the NTSB reports every day to see if anything happened to one of their planes. He said that they concluded that it was improper piloting that was causing the problem and said the NTSB was satisfied with the design. I don't think they are going to do much to change it. I can't help but wonder if another fork with even a steeper down angle and therefore more clearance wouldn't help. I may get some of my mechanical engineers at work to do some modeling.

Paul
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  #75  
Old 09-04-2007, 03:27 PM
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Steve A Steve A is offline
 
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Default Landing Van's A Models

I had the pleasure of flying with Dave Austin for transition training in Denton Tex. I mentioned that I wanted to go into a grass strip but all the forum BS was making me wonder. His take was refreshing and backed up with his teaching in a 9A. Pilot training is the key. We landed 17 times on grass and small asphalt runways and he taught me to land on the mains and keep the weight back until the plane slowed down to a crawl. This requires using the rudder to control the plane much like a tailwheel landing. One technique he espoused was bringing up the flaps on roll out and with the nose wheel still in the air. This ensures further speed reduction and the nose wheel makes contact with the ground at the lowest possible speed and with the least force.
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  #76  
Old 09-04-2007, 03:32 PM
DeltaRomeo DeltaRomeo is offline
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Default Good 'ol Dave

Dave Austin gave me a lot of my primary training (in his C-150) back in the 80's. I solo'd in his plane - N1674Q....you never forget the tail number of your solo plane <g>.

What a great guy (and good instructor). I'd trust whatever he says.

b,
dr
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  #77  
Old 09-04-2007, 06:38 PM
Captain Avgas Captain Avgas is offline
 
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Default Great on nice days

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve A
We landed 17 times on grass and small asphalt runways and he taught me to land on the mains and keep the weight back until the plane slowed down to a crawl.
Yeh, I did the transition training with Mike Seager....same thing...stick all the way back until the nose gear plops down. It's great training and good fun...on the nice days that are conducive to a bit of flying finesse.

Then there's the ugly days....rain beating on the windshield...can hardly see the edge of the strip...strong cross wind and sudden gusts. That's when you may not be able to do the "pull-the-stick-back-progressively-and-plop-the-nose-down-gently" trick. That's when we'll all be praying that the nosegear holds up.

As they say in the classics....you're only as good as your LAST landing (actually I made that up !)
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  #78  
Old 09-04-2007, 09:05 PM
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rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Location: Hubbard Oregon
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Avgas
Then there's the ugly days....rain beating on the windshield...can hardly see the edge of the strip...strong cross wind and sudden gusts. That's when you may not be able to do the "pull-the-stick-back-progressively-and-plop-the-nose-down-gently" trick. That's when we'll all be praying that the nosegear holds up.
Hmmm... It's been a long time since I did my primary training, but while working on short field and soft field procedures I don't remember my instructor every saying "do this if you are able too", "If you are not to tired", etc., etc.

With the large number of certificated aircraft that get nose gear related damage every year, I guess there are a lot of "ugly days" for pilots.
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  #79  
Old 09-04-2007, 10:28 PM
redbeardmark redbeardmark is offline
 
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Avgas
Yeh, I did the transition training with Mike Seager....same thing...stick all the way back until the nose gear plops down. It's great training and good fun...on the nice days that are conducive to a bit of flying finesse.

Then there's the ugly days....rain beating on the windshield...can hardly see the edge of the strip...strong cross wind and sudden gusts. That's when you may not be able to do the "pull-the-stick-back-progressively-and-plop-the-nose-down-gently" trick. That's when we'll all be praying that the nosegear holds up.

As they say in the classics....you're only as good as your LAST landing (actually I made that up !)
I've found that landing at night can increase the probability of a less-than-perfect landing. Precise depth perception is a problem. To counter, I keep a little engine rpm on until just touching down. No short fields for me a night, though.

Also, on those gusty cross wind days, full flaps can be too much and the light little RV can get pushed around. Half flaps works well.

Flying in the rain at $4.50/gallon?
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  #80  
Old 09-07-2007, 05:23 PM
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bryanflood bryanflood is offline
 
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Default Vans A Flipping

I am posting a link a friend sent to me... only because it clearly shows an a model RV on grass flipping at somehting like 10-20 mph. It appears to me the nose gear gets a small bounce, mains on solid and then the whole plane just flips. Seems like clear evidence to me of a situation that should not occur, even if the pilot had applied braking, etc b/c the plane appears to be below the speed at which the pilot was able to hold off the nose.

Whadda yall think?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c7b_1189120813

Bryan
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