Crumbs from the table of wisdom...

[Copperhead]

Ok guys, I admit it....I am a newbie An infant, a vitual babe in the woods, and barely know fore from aft. I've been to RV anonymous, however, I am unable to break the building addiction. I've rushed out, bought a partially completed empennage and toolkit, am finishing it out and about to order the wing kit. To make matters worse, I have gotten my finace hooked as well. She is 110% behind the project and probably handles the parts as well as I do, however, we are in a lull right now while we get married and move her from Colorado (I know, I know, but marriage is not the topic of this post... ). What I really need at this point in the venture is advise, direction, and counseling from those of you who have "gone on before".

My delimma is while I have hundreds of hours of backseat time and some rotorcraft instruction, I am still in the process of getting my ticket... We are wanting to buy an A/C to complete my instruction in as well as use for travel back and forth to Colorado where her family lives once my experience and confidence level builds to where we feel comfortable. No, I'm not talking mountain flying, just higher elevation on the front range. Once the 9A is ready for engine, avionics, etc. then sell it for capitol.

Thanks to a great bunch of RVers I met in Colorado Springs while being a ramp rat and driving through the hangers looking for RVs (you guys know who you are). I was advised to stay away from anything less than 125 h.p. due to the altitude. That brings this rambling to its point.

Is there any particular A/C you "group guru's" could suggest which would fit this mission? Any that would make transition to the 9A easier? Choices in engine? Engines to stay away from? FI vs. carb? Resale value? Instrumentation for day/night VFR? You know, all the usual stuff a vulnerable individual such as myself might get stuck with (the little woman keeps asking me all these questions I can't answer).

I am currently looking at a Musketeer with a 145 h.p. FI, but perhaps one of you have something better suited for my situation.

I appreciate any suggestions you might have, and yeah, I can take the ribbing a new guy gets so go ahead.....

Chuck

[Captain_John]

Get a 2 seat Grumman. It ground handles similar to the -9A as it has a castering nosewheel and an O-320.

CJ

[jonbakerok]

A Cherokee 140 is a great trainer and the pattern speeds are about the same as an RV. The landing charateristics are very similar -- high sink rate, with not much float (although, I understand the 9 is much more gentle than a normal RV). Unlike a Grumman, the performance is so bad that you won't be tempted to just keep it and forget about the RV. If you buy right, you might even make some money on it.

[jbDC9]

Originally Posted by Captain_John

Get a 2 seat Grumman. It ground handles similar to the -9A as it has a castering nosewheel and an O-320.

Umm, actually, the stock 2 seat Grumman AA-1 has a Lyc O-235, around 110-118 hp... and almost no wing to support it. Wouldn't be a good ship for Colorado, IMHO. There are a few AA-1s out there modified with 150 hp O-320s, but might be kinda hard to find. An AA-5A Cheetah might be a better bet; a bit bigger wing and 150 hp... it has 4 seats, but at COS might want to limit it to a 2 seater. I've flown Cheetahs with 3 people on a warm day near sea level... not much of a climb rate, and would be even worse in Colorado.

[svanarts]

Originally Posted by jonbakerok

A Cherokee 140 is a great trainer and the pattern speeds are about the same as an RV. ... Unlike a Grumman, the performance is so bad that you won't be tempted to just keep it and forget about the RV.

Once he flies that 9A he'll forget about any other airplane!

But I agree, get yourself a nice low wing Piper. I don't know how well that Musketeer is going to do in Colorado in summer.

[Brian130]

I learned in Colorado Springs in a 125hp Diamond Katana. It performed great. We could be at 10K in a relative hurry. Granted, however, it was a composite body, lightweight, and had limited baggage space.

[Captain_John]

Originally Posted by jbDC9

Umm, actually, the stock 2 seat Grumman AA-1 has a Lyc O-235, around 110-118 hp... and almost no wing to support it. Wouldn't be a good ship for Colorado, IMHO. There are a few AA-1s out there modified with 150 hp O-320s, but might be kinda hard to find. An AA-5A Cheetah might be a better bet; a bit bigger wing and 150 hp... it has 4 seats, but at COS might want to limit it to a 2 seater. I've flown Cheetahs with 3 people on a warm day near sea level... not much of a climb rate, and would be even worse in Colorado.

My buddy has the 160 hp in his. It has the STC for the 320.

CJ

[rv9aviator]

I owned a straight tail Cessna 172 for about 7 years before I started my RV-9 and it was a great airplane. It was inexpensive and was very easy to fly. With two people it climbs OK and is comfortable inside. I paid $20,000 for it and sold it for $28,000. I don't regret buying that plane for a minute. You will really appreciate the performance of your new RV too after flying the Cessna.
Good luck on your new project and on your impending marriage.
Jim Wright 90919 wings RV-9A Arkansas

[adouglas]

Before you get your heart set on owning your own spam can, think REALLY hard about the actual cost of doing so. It might make a lot more sense to join a flying club.

Of course, if you're so rich that money is no object, none of the following applies:

When you own your own airplane, every penny that gets spent on it comes out of your pocket. That's loan interest, tax, tiedown/hangar, insurance, routine maintenance, unexpected maintenance, overhauls, upgrades, ANNUALS (ask around to find out what annuals REALLY cost, especially that first one when they find all the squawks the previous owner neglected to tell you about).... Are you prepared to buy an airplane that costs tens of thousands of dollars and then spend another $6000 or so on the first annual? This is common.

And that's before you even go flying!

It's true that most airplanes were fully depreciated years ago and are increasing in value at best and holding their value at worst. So you'll get your initial outlay back when you sell. But ownership is still very expensive. R9aviator, you made $8000 on the sale of your airplane. How much did you spend on it from the time you bought it to the time you sold it, not counting direct operating costs? I'd lay odds you put a lot more than $8000 into it.

Want to save money? Great...wash the plane yourself, do your own oil changes (and anything else permitted by the FARs)...oh, wait a minute, your schedule is full building the RV....

Figure out how many hours a year you will REALLY be able to fly (especially if you're otherwise occupied building an airplane and engaging in this thing called "a life"). Do the math. Is the cost per ACTUAL hour of use really sensible?

With a flying club, you get to spread a lot of those costs among many people. Moreover, you don't have to spend ANY time or effort dealing with the hassles of ownership. Just schedule, show up, and go flying. The tradeoff is that you don't get to fly whenever you please. But in practice, this isn't all that much of a drawback considering the economics.

Example: I'm looking at a club right now that has two very nice IFR Archers (Garmin 430s, no less) and a Dakota. Initiation $1000, fixed costs $95/month, no minimums, Archer rate $53/hour dry TACH (not Hobbs). Plus you get to keep the airplane one weekend a month AND two whole weeks each year...with no minimum flight time requirement.

That's a LOT cheaper than a straight rental and there's absolutely no way you could own an airplane like that for that kind of money.

Flying is NOT cheap, no matter how you look at it. Owning an airplane isn't like owning an expensive car. It's more like owning a great big yacht. My best friend has a sailboat, and I can confirm that the stories are true...basically you just throw time, effort and money at the thing on a more or less continuous basis. Of course, it's a nice boat and he gets to sail it. But is it REALLY worth it, or would he be better off just chartering a boat for vacation every year? He and his wife have a toddler, and last year they went sailing maybe three times, for a few hours each time. Life happens.

Check out some of the articles on AvWeb. Good stuff there.

Owning your own airplane is an appealing, romantic idea. But think with your head, not your heart. Put the money you save into the RV...or better yet, invest it so you can keep flying many years from now.

[jonbakerok]

Well, I would agree with part of what you said. Don't try to build an RV9 and learn to fly at the same time. They're aren't enough hours in the day.

But my experience with owning my own trainer was very positive. I bought a recently painted PA28-140 with a mid-time engine, but ratty interior and avionics. I spiffed it up and two years later, sold it for $8000 more than I paid for it. Even after expenses, I cleared about $2000. I did all my maintenance myself, with A&P supervision.

It took me a lot of research and about six months of looking to find the right plane at the right price. The key was finding someone to help, which wasn't that hard. It's amazing how many guys at the airport are also A&P's who would love to help a new guy get started. I just hung around the airport until I got to know people. It would have been even easier if I'd known about EAA at the time.

In short, it took some research and mechanical ability and and a lot of patience. Anybody capable of finishing an RV ought to have those skills in abundance.