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  #1  
Old 05-04-2020, 09:41 PM
1flyingyogi 1flyingyogi is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 380
Default Practicing Rolling [Half] Circles

My first few attempts at rolling circles in the RV. I've done a few in the Laser as well, and it's definitely more work and harder doing it in the RV.

For the non-aerobatic crowd, rolling circles are continuous rolls done around a circle on the horizontal plane. It's challenging coordination and orientation-wise, but it's fun!

Edit: The original Youtube link had problems, so here's another video I did from before. You can tell that I'm a newbie at this. I'll use all the tips I got from you guys to try to improve and post another video in a few weeks. With camera facing forward for better critiquing.
https://youtu.be/kV3c5LxEEuY
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Brian RV4
0-320 ~ 170hp, AFP fuel injection, EFII Electronic Ignition, Raven inverted oil, Sterba wood prop, 970lbs empty

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Last edited by 1flyingyogi : 05-07-2020 at 02:02 PM.
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  #2  
Old 05-05-2020, 12:51 PM
sandifer sandifer is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 667
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Hey Brian, great to see you being branching out with the RV! Though the IAC judge in me must mention that you are doing a whole lot of turning under positive G, but almost no turning under negative G. The nose moves very little across the horizon from each inverted position to upright position. Reset your G meter before practicing each one and try to make the G meter register equal pos/neg G - 2-2.5G will do it. That will at least tell you you're in the ballpark with equal pos/neg turn rates. Also be sure to use lots of rudder during the wings level (upright and inverted) phases to keep that nose moving through the horizon. You wanna try to evenly integrate all the turning with the rolling and keep the nose moving through the turn regardless of attitude. RVs of course have much less rudder authority than dedicated acro ships, but the more challenging it is, the more fun it is right?
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  #3  
Old 05-05-2020, 09:53 PM
1flyingyogi 1flyingyogi is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 380
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I appreciate the tips, Eric. Yes, I realized that (about pulling more positive than negative). I was cheating b/c it's not comfortable for me to push too much negative - especially the switching back and forth between negative and positive is really uncomfortable. But I'm getting better at tolerating it. And the rudder authority is horrible in the RV compared to aerobatic mounts like my Laser (which is sold as of today) or a Pitts. These planes also handle more neutrally, whether you're on the negative or positive portions of the maneuver. For the RV, when positive, very little stick force is required, but while negative, I almost have to use both hands to push and the rudder requires so much force, I feel like my legs are getting a work out, and still the nose hardly moves (while moving through the level portions, inverted or upright).

I know I have LOTS to work on - roller are pretty new to me. I don't plan on ever competing at that level anyway. I'm just having fun and seeing what I can do with an RV.

On another note, do you guys feel comfortable snapping in the RV? I feel like it's abusing the plane and I'm afraid something might break if it's done too often. How about snaps on the down-line (like right after a hammer when airspeed is low)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandifer View Post
Hey Brian, great to see you being branching out with the RV! Though the IAC judge in me must mention that you are doing a whole lot of turning under positive G, but almost no turning under negative G. The nose moves very little across the horizon from each inverted position to upright position. Reset your G meter before practicing each one and try to make the G meter register equal pos/neg G - 2-2.5G will do it. That will at least tell you you're in the ballpark with equal pos/neg turn rates. Also be sure to use lots of rudder during the wings level (upright and inverted) phases to keep that nose moving through the horizon. You wanna try to evenly integrate all the turning with the rolling and keep the nose moving through the turn regardless of attitude. RVs of course have much less rudder authority than dedicated acro ships, but the more challenging it is, the more fun it is right?
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Brian RV4
0-320 ~ 170hp, AFP fuel injection, EFII Electronic Ignition, Raven inverted oil, Sterba wood prop, 970lbs empty

Dues Happily Paid
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  #4  
Old 05-06-2020, 05:38 AM
ronschreck's Avatar
ronschreck ronschreck is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posts: 1,704
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The RV takes lots of forward stick to maintain inverted or negative G flight and the rudder isn't big enough to maintain knife edge flight. That makes it a difficult airplane to do competition aerobatics with, but that makes it that much more of a challenge! Get the rolling circles and snap rolls down and you will be able to compete at the intermediate level of IAC competition. Beating pilots who fly Pitts and Extras is super rewarding! Keep it up.
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IAC National Judge
RV-8, "Miss Izzy", 2250 Hours- Sold
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  #5  
Old 05-06-2020, 09:42 AM
RV8Squaz's Avatar
RV8Squaz RV8Squaz is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Senoia, Georgia
Posts: 899
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1flyingyogi View Post
I appreciate the tips, Eric. Yes, I realized that (about pulling more positive than negative). I was cheating b/c it's not comfortable for me to push too much negative - especially the switching back and forth between negative and positive is really uncomfortable. But I'm getting better at tolerating it. And the rudder authority is horrible in the RV compared to aerobatic mounts like my Laser (which is sold as of today) or a Pitts. These planes also handle more neutrally, whether you're on the negative or positive portions of the maneuver. For the RV, when positive, very little stick force is required, but while negative, I almost have to use both hands to push and the rudder requires so much force, I feel like my legs are getting a work out, and still the nose hardly moves (while moving through the level portions, inverted or upright).

I know I have LOTS to work on - roller are pretty new to me. I don't plan on ever competing at that level anyway. I'm just having fun and seeing what I can do with an RV.

On another note, do you guys feel comfortable snapping in the RV? I feel like it's abusing the plane and I'm afraid something might break if it's done too often. How about snaps on the down-line (like right after a hammer when airspeed is low)?

Hi Brian,

Everything you wrote above is absolutely correct. It takes considerably more push than pull to do a good roller which I never quite got. I also used all of the rudder I could get. Like you, I initially didn’t feel comfortable pushing that hard on the stick. I would cheat as well trying to get the majority of the turn done while pulling. Sometimes I would get 50-60 degrees of turn while positive only to get another 20 degrees while negative.

I finally started getting better at them by practicing inverted 45 and 60 bank level turns to the cardinal headings. Once I got comfortable with the 60 bank level inverted turn, my rollers began to improve. They weren’t great by any stretch, but they were improving.

Also, part of my discomfort was that I hadn’t yet installed a dual ratcheting seatbelt. I was in the process of doing so, but then I too felt like I was abusing my airplane practicing for Intermediate. I developed a few loose rivets, a fuel tank leak, and a couple of significant canopy issues. I know that Ron and Bill have been successful competing in Intermediate with their RVs, but I decided to back off in mine. Besides I’m interested in going further in competition aerobatics and I might as well get the right equipment. I’m still shopping for an Extra and more importantly an Extra partner!

I feel that having competed in my RV has been a blessing. It’s made me realize how much I enjoy competition aerobatics and how much I miss it. I can’t wait to get back in the game. I enjoy everything about it: the precise flying (knowing that I can put the airplane in any attitude within a couple of degrees at the perfect energy state is very powerful), having a reason to fly every day (always need to practice), the training camps and get togethers, the traveling, and of course the people.

Keep on having fun Brian. You’ve got the right attitude!
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RV-8 N84JE

Last edited by RV8Squaz : 05-06-2020 at 08:37 PM. Reason: typo
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  #6  
Old 05-06-2020, 07:41 PM
1flyingyogi 1flyingyogi is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 380
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Thanks for your comments Jerry and Ron. Although I very much enjoy aerobatics, I still consider the RV my "primary" plane and when I had the Laser (or whatever acro mount I may end up with in the future), will always be just the "optional" plane. But I don't have to preach to you guys what a great all-around plane the RV is - you know that. Haha. Well, I guess if money were no object, an Sbach or Extra could do very well replace my RV.

Jerry, too bad you're not closer to me, otherwise I'd love to be a partner with you in something. Extras are too expensive for me though. I was thinking maybe an Eagle would be good. Or if I had $200k to spend on a plane, I would buy this beauty tomorrow! Just dreaming out loud.

https://barnstormers.com/classified-...ml?catid=15867

Quote:
Originally Posted by RV8Squaz View Post
Hi Brian,

Everything you wrote above is absolutely correct. It takes considerably more push than pull to do a good roller which I never quite got. I also used all of the rudder I could get. Like you, I initially didn?t feel comfortable pushing that hard on the stick. I would cheat as well trying to get the majority of the turn done while pulling. Sometimes I would get 50-60 degrees of turn while positive only to get another 20 degrees while negative.

I finally started getting better at them by practicing 45 and 60 bank level turns to the cardinal headings. Once I got comfortable with the 60 bank level inverted turn, my rollers began to improve. They weren?t great by any stretch, but they were improving.

Also, part of my discomfort was that I hadn?t yet installed a dual ratcheting seatbelt. I was in the process of doing so, but then I too felt like I was abusing my airplane practicing for Intermediate. I developed a few loose rivets, a fuel tank leak, and a couple of significant canopy issues. I know that Ron and Bill have been successful competing in Intermediate with their RVs, but I decided to back off in mine. Besides I?m interested in going further in competition aerobatics and I might as well get the right equipment. I?m still shopping for an Extra and more importantly an Extra partner!

I feel that having competed in my RV has been a blessing. It?s made me realize how much I enjoy competition aerobatics and how much I miss it. I can?t wait to get back in the game. I enjoy everything about it: the precise flying (knowing that I can put the airplane in any attitude within a couple of degrees at the perfect energy state is very powerful), having a reason to fly every day (always need to practice), the training camps and get togethers, the traveling, and of course the people.

Keep on having fun Brian. You?ve got the right attitude!
__________________
Brian RV4
0-320 ~ 170hp, AFP fuel injection, EFII Electronic Ignition, Raven inverted oil, Sterba wood prop, 970lbs empty

Dues Happily Paid
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  #7  
Old 05-06-2020, 08:13 PM
Boyd Birchler Boyd Birchler is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: IN
Posts: 254
Default

We aerobatic competition types call these "rollers". Flying a circular path over the ground and placing one to four, equally spaced continuous rolls, on that circular line. This if done to perfection requires no hesitations in rate of turn over the ground or rate of roll. If it is a 4 roll 360 degree roller each half roll should complete every 45 degrees around the circle, and finally all competition rolls are slow rolls,no barrel what so ever.

These are seen in intermediate (not very often), advanced and unlimited competition categories. They are called "the black hole of point deduction" because there are so many places to make mistakes. A by the book well judged roller is hard to get a score of 7 out of 10.

To perform a roller to competition standards a inverted fuel and oil system is a must.
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  #8  
Old 05-06-2020, 09:00 PM
petercavallo's Avatar
petercavallo petercavallo is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Socal
Posts: 111
Default Snap rolls in the RV

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1flyingyogi View Post
I appreciate the tips, Eric. Yes, I realized that (about pulling more positive than negative). I was cheating b/c it's not comfortable for me to push too much negative - especially the switching back and forth between negative and positive is really uncomfortable. But I'm getting better at tolerating it. And the rudder authority is horrible in the RV compared to aerobatic mounts like my Laser (which is sold as of today) or a Pitts. These planes also handle more neutrally, whether you're on the negative or positive portions of the maneuver. For the RV, when positive, very little stick force is required, but while negative, I almost have to use both hands to push and the rudder requires so much force, I feel like my legs are getting a work out, and still the nose hardly moves (while moving through the level portions, inverted or upright).

I know I have LOTS to work on - roller are pretty new to me. I don't plan on ever competing at that level anyway. I'm just having fun and seeing what I can do with an RV.

On another note, do you guys feel comfortable snapping in the RV? I feel like it's abusing the plane and I'm afraid something might break if it's done too often. How about snaps on the down-line (like right after a hammer when airspeed is low)?
Hi Brian I too would be uncomfortable snapping the RV so I do not . I suspect the structure is not up to it . I think I did see the highly modified RV4 with the big ailerons with tail braces but memory is old Ron may know
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  #9  
Old 05-06-2020, 09:05 PM
sandifer sandifer is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 667
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boyd Birchler View Post
It it is a 4 roll 360 degree roller each half roll should complete every 45 degrees around the circle.
Yep, half roll per 45 degrees of turn is one flavor. The other two flavors they come in are 60 degrees of turn per half roll, and 90 degrees of turn per half roll...all done both to the inside and outside beyond Intermediate. The matrix of possible combinations of snaps and rollers that you must do with competence really hits you hard in the upper categories.
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  #10  
Old 05-07-2020, 02:46 AM
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ronrapp ronrapp is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: North Tustin, CA
Posts: 70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1flyingyogi View Post
Extras are too expensive for me though. I was thinking maybe an Eagle would be good. Or if I had $200k to spend on a plane, I would buy this beauty tomorrow! Just dreaming out loud.

https://barnstormers.com/classified-...ml?catid=15867
It's hard to beat a Pitts S-1 series aircraft for an economic way into Intermediate and Advanced competition. Not sure you could beat the performance for the $$$.

Although from personal experience, Advanced is hard even on a Pitts. Problems with nails backing out, broken or loose parts inside the wing, broken longerons, and a broken crankshaft were just some of the issues on a Pitts I partnered in (that one was an S-2B flown by all the partners in Advanced).

Personally, I would not snap an RV. I'm not saying you can't do it, but it will take a toll on the airframe. There are a number of airplanes (the Decathlon comes to mind) where it's an approved maneuver, but causes issues with fuel tank leaks and whatnot. It's all a question of how hard to want to fly your airframe.

Intermediate compulsory sequences only contain a single positive snap roll. Once you get into Advanced, the delta on sequence difficulty rises exponentially. Anyway, the nice thing about an S-1 is it preserves the cash for operating another airplane. Lord knows a Pitts is great for aerobatics.... but not much else.

--Ron
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