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RV-3B Vs Extra 300

rph142

Well Known Member
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RV-3B vs Extra300
Earlier this year I was unexpectedly given the option to buy a 25% share of a 300hp mid-wing Extra 300, and as luck would have it the plane was based at my home field. The rub was that I already owned a plane (my -3B) and I recently bought into a local flying club with an RV-7, C-182 and an A36 Bonanza. So technically I had four planes at my disposal; insurance requirements notwithstanding. This number far exceeded my golden formula: The minimum number of planes one should own is one. The correct number is n+1, where n is the number of planes currently owned. This equation may also be re-written as s-1, where s is the number of planes owned that would result in separation from your partner.

I said, “yes I’m in” in just about the time it took to fill my lungs with enough air to say, “yes I’m in”. From the outside looking in this could’ve been considered an impulse buy. But you see, I’ve been dreaming about owning an Extra 300 since I was 11 years old. Some kids grow up dreaming about a Porsche 911 or a Ferrari - I wanted an Extra 300. It was my AIM screen name, various usernames and or passwords, and I’ve even logged dozens of hours flying foamie and glow RC Extra’s. The opportunity fell into my lap and I was ready; it’s what happens when luck meets preparation. Three weeks later I was an ecstatic ¼ share owner of N111XW and my -3B was fresh on the market.

With 400 RV-3 hours and roughly 25 hours in the -300 I feel its time for a head to head comparison of the two planes. Yes, some would say they serve two different missions, but I disagree. Both airplanes are the most selfish ways you can spend your $$$, and they do it very very well. The three is a single seat solitary experience that fewer than a few hundred people in the US can identify with, while the Extra’s 400 degree per second roll rate and +-10G wing is so intense that even the most willing passenger can’t explore its capabilities. I’ll objectively lay out the numbers before I get into all that really matters; that is, how they feel to fly and how they make YOU feel flying them.

Here are some eye-catching real-world numbers that matter: A 120kt climb yields 1500fpm in the Extra and 2500 fpm in the 3B, while an 80kt climb yields >3500fpm in the Extra and less than 2000 fpm in the 3B. The Extra consumes fuel like someone drilled ¼” holes in the wings – 18-25GPH all day long! The -3B could be leaned down to 5.7GPH @160ktas. The Extra rolls around 400 degrees a second vs 140degrees/sec for the -3B. The stick forces are considerably lighter in the Extra and Extra stalls about 10-15kts higher than the -3B. The outside visibility in the extra is comparable to the spirit of St. Luis while the 3B’s bubble canopy make it a nice patroller. The numbers would suggest the living room built -3B is out of its league and fighting 2 levels above its weight class. But numbers lie.

These are two high performance planes, but they offer very different “I’m goin flying” experiences. It starts with pushing the plane out of the hangar. Ground maneuvering the 825lb -3B was like rolling my mountain bike out from my garage. Climbing into the 3 was a similar experience; I built it to fit my body plus the monocoque design meant I didn’t have to worry about stepping through a lexan floor. The -3 is worn like road bike racing kit whereas the Extras 7-point double ratchet harness locks you in like a straight jacket. Forward visibility on the ground in the Extra is basically as bad as it gets in aviation. You simply can’t see through the leading edge of the horizon-level, mid mounted wings. Meanwhile, taxiing the 3 was as easy as riding a bicycle due to the 360-degree vis offered by the bubble canopy.

Roll out and take-off are also surprisingly different. The -3B pulls harder from the gate and as soon as airflow develops over the control surfaces it immediately feels like an extension of your body. The initial rollout in the Extra feels more like there’s a degree or two of separation between you and your control inputs. Climbing out in the -3B is an amazingly simple and rewarding experience. You simply push the throttle all the way forward and point the plane where you want to go. It’s impossible to overheat the engine, the fuel rate never reaches wallet crushing levels, so if you forget to lean it’s no big deal, you can see where you’re going at just about any speed, and it climbs like a homesick angel. Meanwhile the Extra will burn >25gph if you let it, the prop needs managing, the throttle and mixture must come back, or you’ll go broke, and you can’t see a 3900 ft mountain when you’re pointed straight at it.

Aerobatics – This is where the Extra shines. It’s basically an unbreakable machine that can handle far more giddy up than our bodies will allow. Uplines and downlines are performed as if gravity doesn’t exist. Spins are predictable and can be stopped on precise headings. In short, flying acro feels like that first bite of a fresh cold apple; its crisp. This is not to say the -3B is a slouch. It can certainly perform basic acro with ease, but it would decelerate rapidly on the upline and accelerate quickly to VNE on the downlines and inverted was…awkward.

Half the fun of flying is going places. I don’t think there’s a paved strip in the country that I couldn’t land the -3B on. If its wider than the landing gear its OK. I could reliably feel the wheels “spool up” during greasers. This is where the Extra grinds my gears. A 75ft wide runway gets your attention and a 60ft wide runway is like high stakes roulette. When you pull the power in the Extra you’d better point the nose at the ground in a hurry because it glides like a set of car keys, or a watch, or a cast iron skillet. The -3B feels like a 49:1 Discus by comparison. And finally, there’s that brief period of time when you chop power over the numbers and flare. This was my favorite part of the flight in the -3B. I felt like I was in total control until touchdown. The extra on the other hand, with its zero visibility, makes you feel like a passenger at times. Then theres the gear designs. Vans nailed it with the tapered spring steel legs. They soak up any extra vertical velocity and rarely launch you back into the air, whereas the Extra’s solid composite gear has a skateboard like feel.

At the end of the day they’re both a blast to fly but if I could own both I’d probably end up flying the -3B 80% of the time. You simply cant beat vans total performance.
 
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Great report Rob - comparing and contrasting airplanes is always fun!

So I lost track - did you find a buyer for the -3?
 
Rob: great write-up! You're one lucky man.

Dreaming.....

(BTW is your -3 webpage still active? couldn't get it too work)

Doug
Seattle area
 
Paul, I sold my -3 to Dick Stone out of Colorado. Fortunately he gave me first right of refusal when he sells it someday. Congrats on your new book btw!!
 
Doug, I let my site expire a while back. There are a few far better resources online including Randy Lervolds and David Paules build logs.
 
Rob,

Great writeup, I enjoyed reading it!

I didn't see you at OSH this past summer but did take some pictures of your -3B that were used at the awards ceremony.

Most everyone who saw the pictures really appreciated it!
 
X-country

Flying the Extra is fantastic....until you have to go cross country for any distance. That's where the RV beats it any day of the week. What a privilege it is for us to be able to fly these planes
 
That was great writing and spot-on, thanks for sharing.

One of the most memorable times of owning my RV-3A was once while doing a formation take off with a mid-wing Extra 300 like you have, my buddy in his Extra says over tower frequency... "Robert slow down".

Yep, Van really nailed it with the RV-3 design.
 
Great write-up, Rob. I really liked the analogy of the crisp apple - right on!

My experience of owning the RV4 and Laser 200 are very similar to yours. The only thing I would add as far as differences b/t an RV and an Extra/ Laser/ other purpose built acro mounts is that the Laser is much more neutral handling. The RV is great upright and level, but when you put it on it's side, even with full top rudder, it drops like a rock. And inverted requires the nose way up high to maintain altitude. And of course the slow roll rate with huge stick forces at full deflection.

I always dreamed of a slightly modified -4 that is more suitable for acro. Semi-symmetrical wings with full length ailerons and spades/ no flaps, a taller fuselage side area (fast back), bigger, more triangular-shaped rudder. These small changes would make a really fun -4 that will still retain a lot of the qualities that make it such a great all-around airplane! I'm just dreaming out loud... :p
 
Paul, I sold my -3 to Dick Stone out of Colorado. Fortunately he gave me first right of refusal when he sells it someday. Congrats on your new book btw!!

Wait a minute Rob. I bought my -8 from Dick and your -3 is next on my list!:)
 
A buddy of mine had access to an Extra 300 as a "work airplane" and he often flew it as a proficiency trainer for his employer. He also often borrowed my -8 on weekend trips. He had several opportunities to fly the two side by side on ferry/repositioning flights and was shocked to discover the 200 HP -8 would flat out and run away from the 300 HP Extra in cruise. That unbreakable fat wing on the Extra costs a LOT of speed.
 
A slightly different viewpoint.

Hey Rob, thank you for posting this. As someone getting ready to embark on the purchase of an Extra, I really appreciate your post.

I?ve never flown an RV-3 or an Extra 300. My views come from the 1700+ hours in my RV-8 and the 5 or 6 hours I?ve had in the Extra 330LX. The 300L is the low wing version of the 300 and the 330LX is an improved version of the 300L. I agree that the forward view in the mid-wing 300 is awful (I sat in one for about 15 minutes making acro noises). The 300L resolves most of that with the low wing. The view out of the immense bubble canopy is amazing. In either case the 400 deg/s roll rate and the feather light control forces, makes seeing below a non-event. You can see downward better from the back seat of an Extra than the front seat of the RV-8.

They do serve two completely different missions in my opinion. The RVs are fantastic ?Jack of all trades? airplanes. The Extra has two purposes, competition aerobatics and air shows. Sure you can fly the Extra on a cross-country or take it to a pancake breakfast, but that?s not why you fly an Extra. You do a cross-country because you have to, to get from contest to contest or air show to air show. Truly, I wish I could continue to use my RV in competition. But as Rob said, the Extra is virtually unbreakable. For the stage I?m at in competition aerobatics, unbreakable is an important feature. Oddly enough, Extra does make a cross-country version, the 300LT. It has some improved creature comforts, avionics, and a faster semi-symmetrical airfoil.

While the Extra is a heavier airplane, the 300 hp of the 300 or the 315 hp of the 300LX is unmistakable. The acceleration is not quite after-burner like, but more significant than my 200 hp, RV-8. The RV-8 seems to get airborne sooner, perhaps due to the airfoil and flaps. I once flew alongside an Extra 200 and I could out climb and out run him, but he had the same engine I do. The Extra 300 has a 300 hp AEIO-540 while the Extra 330 has a 315 hp AEIO-580. Although the Extra 300 is not as fast as you would think due to the big, thick airfoil wing, I seriously doubt I would be able to out climb it. Yes, you do burn 25-30 gph on a typical acro sortie. You could probably get it down to 14-16 gph in cruise just like any other 300 hp engined aircraft. But that's the price you have to pay to be able to hurl it about the sky!

The Extra is the closest thing I?ve flown to a tactical aircraft outside of the military. It?s got that hard seat-stiff ride, brisk acceleration, incredible handling and control forces, and you fly the tickle just like the T-38.

A 1/4 share of the Extra 300 pictured in the original post is currently listed for sale on the various sites. If it were located in Atlanta, I would be all over it! Rob, are you the one selling the share?

Jerry
 
A 1/4 share of the Extra 300 pictured in the original post is currently listed for sale on the various sites. If it were located in Atlanta, I would be all over it! Rob, are you the one selling the share?
The original owner is selling his 1/4 share. I just bought into it this summer and will need at least a few years to scratch the itch. Youre right about the view straight down being better than the RV series. You sit well behind the trailing edge in the Extra.
 
Hey Rob,
Always hate to hear of someone having to sell their RV. However, in your case you have managed to triple your fun. Stay out in front of that sled when you are on the down hill, and enjoy the itch. Give your dad my best!
 
I've got a friend who built a One Design. It's 180hp with a VP prop and fairly light, he knows how to get the best from it to.

Another friend has a 200hp RV-7 again with a VP prop.

The RV is Faster (flat out) Slower (stall speed) and climbs better at pretty much any speed. G for G it also seems to turn better (ie smaller turn radius for a given level of G)

Meanwhile, my 160hp Fixed pitch RV-6 is also faster and slower as per the above. We have yet to try a climb rate match off.

I'm not for one minute suggesting that one aeroplane is better than the other - "horses for courses" and all that. But I do have to say I'm really impressed that the RV's can hold their own with such a high performance light weight single seater.
 
Extra

For some amazing video search Svetlana Kapanina. Seven times women's World Aerobatic Champion.
Video of her flying the Extra 300, Sukhoi SU26 and Su29.
 
Turn radius per G in level flight is purely dependent on speed and nothing else.

Skylor

Quite right........I did'nt really put over my point very well.

I suppose what I was trying to say was that the RV seems to induce less drag and "slips" less when pulling G in a turn. This is reflected in less loss of speed and the aircraft seeming to "hold" the turn radius better, purely subjective and only from my perspective as the pilot of the RV.
 
Quite right........I did'nt really put over my point very well.

I suppose what I was trying to say was that the RV seems to induce less drag and "slips" less when pulling G in a turn. This is reflected in less loss of speed and the aircraft seeming to "hold" the turn radius better, purely subjective and only from my perspective as the pilot of the RV.

If the RV "seems" to turn tighter, what you are probably seeing is a greater loss of speed in the RV. Remember, the low aspect ratio wings of the RV have a lot of induced drag at high angles of attack while the One Design with its thick tapered wing along with its lighter weight should tend to fare a little better in hard turns. At constant "G", the slower the speed the tighter the turn radius.

Skylor
Skylor
 
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The original owner is selling his 1/4 share. I just bought into it this summer and will need at least a few years to scratch the itch. Youre right about the view straight down being better than the RV series. You sit well behind the trailing edge in the Extra.

Thank you very much Rob. I hope to see you at contest sometime!
 
If the RV "seems" to turn tighter, what you are probably seeing is a greater loss of speed in the RV. Remember, the low aspect ratio wings of the RV have a lot of induced drag at high angles of attack while the Extra with its thick tapered wing along with the bigger prop and more power tends to fare a little better in hard turns. At constant "G", the slower the speed the tighter the turn radius.

He was referring to the One Design rather than an Extra. The wing of a 1D is barely more efficient than a baseball bat.
 
Oops

He was referring to the One Design rather than an Extra. The wing of a 1D is barely more efficient than a baseball bat.

Oops, my bad. So the One Design has a weight advantage over the-7 and the thick entry of it's wing should still work pretty well pulling G's even if it's lousy in cruise!

Skylor
 
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