Whirlwind Propellers and what now?

[Whirl Wind Aviation]

James -

I would like to apologize for any miscommunication and would like to clarify a couple of points below.

1. The 150/151 Service Letter does not affect O-320 engines, it only affects the O/IO-360 engines.

2. The new 151H blades & upgrade come with a full 1 year / 350 hour (whichever comes first) warranty.

Sincerely,
Bill Koleno
440-275-1540
whirlwindaviation@yahoo.com

[Whirl Wind Aviation]

James -

I would like to apologize for any miscommunication and would like to clarify a couple of points below.

1. The 150/151 Service Letter does not affect O-320 engines, it only affects the O/IO-360 engines.

2. The new 151H blades & upgrade come with a full 1 year / 350 hour (whichever comes first) warranty.

Sincerely,
Bill Koleno
440-275-1540
whirlwindaviation@yahoo.com

[N62XS]

Originally Posted by Whirl Wind Aviation

Dear Vans Airforce forum members,

I would like to invite any of you to contact me directly with questions on the Whirl Wind propeller. I am seeing incorrect information get posted on this site, and I would like to make sure the truth is communicated. I cannot monitor this site as often as I would like, so please feel welcome to contact me via email or phone if you have specific questions or comments.

The recent service letter only affects the 150/151 series propeller on O/IO-360 engines only. All other models of Whirl Wind propellers are unaffected, and service intervals vary by propeller model and remain unchanged. The affected 151 owners that are not in warranty are being offered the new updated blades at below Whirl Wind cost. The retail price is $4500 for a set of 3 - 151H blades, and the service letter price is $2250. This service also includes additional updates to 151H specs at no additional cost.

All propeller companies will have service letters and AD?s, and some are quite expensive. Whirl Wind strives to always put the customer first, and rather than sweep a potential issue under the carpet, we inform our customers and provide proven solutions.

Whirl Wind is a company that produces innovative propellers developed specifically for the unique requirements of sport aircraft. We are here to support your efforts.

Sincerely,
Bill Koleno
440-275-1540
whirlwindaviation@yahoo.com
Customer Service Director
Whirl Wind Aviation

My discussions with other Whirlwind employees has revealed that not everyone at Titan agrees with the way we are being asked to fund and complete the 151 research and development. My 151 has about 80 hours on it over the past 15 months and I too purchased it from Jim and Patti Rust. As I understand it, Jim will manufacture the 151-H blades and your Ohio facility currently has only four sets of blades. These debatable facts raise several questions? What changes will Jim/Titan make in the manufacturing of these new blades? How long will it take to manufacture and replace all defective blades? What warranty will we receive on replaced blades? Why was this not revealed prior to SNF? Why not address this matter in the same way you addressed the 200 backplate issue?

Your statement about other companies holds no water here, as most of these ADs are on mature products. This product has gone from 150 to 151, now to 151-H in just a few years. This is a design defect from San Diego.

I hope the debate at your company revolves around how this will affect future sales, because if you stick it to your current customers, you may as well forget any future sales. I will need two props, one for the RV-8 and one for the RV-10, in the next three years. You can bet these will not be Titan products if I get the shaft on this prop. I think you will find this is the opinion of most builders.

Do the right thing now and your company will have a reputation of customer service that will boost future sales. If your company gives us the empty shaft, you may want to update the old resume'. The right thing to do is to replace the blades gratis with owners paying shipping. You guys including a 5 year warranty.

BTW: Doug, thanks for the prompt reply.

[flyeyes]

Originally Posted by Whirl Wind Aviation

James -

I would like to apologize for any miscommunication and would like to clarify a couple of points below.

1. The 150/151 Service Letter does not affect O-320 engines, it only affects the O/IO-360 engines.

2. The new 151H blades & upgrade come with a full 1 year / 350 hour (whichever comes first) warranty.

Sincerely,
Bill Koleno
440-275-1540
whirlwindaviation@yahoo.com

Bill, I stand corrected on these points, although the others stand.

I would like to ask again my very first question to you from my e-mail tuesday night: Can the factory assist those of us with -360s in finding buyers with 320s? The prop seems to have poor longevity on the bigger motors.

I would respectfully suggest that you alter your advertising as well. As I write this, the prop is still being offered as suitable for (I)O-360 engines with counterweighted cranks. There is no mention of the 100, or 350 hour service interval. (Of course the website never mentioned the earlier 250 hour interval either). Add copy on the web site includes (from your FAQ)


# What is the life expectancy of the Whirl Wind propeller? With a properly maintained and serviced propeller system, you can expect an unlimited life for your propeller. This requires it to be serviced on a regular basis, and does not include abnormal occurrences.

and, interestingly:

What is the ball park cost of the TBO and who do I have to have perform this? The TBO can be done mostly by any regular propeller shop, however the blades need to be returned to the Whirl Wind factory for thorough inspection and overhaul. The base cost is approximately $800 to $1200 for blades that have been properly maintained, and will be higher accordingly for blades that require more reconditioning. Most blade inspections and overhauls can be done in approximately 1 week.


This was some of the information I was relying on when I pruchased my prop. I appreciate that you are willing to engage us, and have some dialog, but I certainly feel that the propeller I have is not the propeller I was promised.

[rongainesrv]

Hey Ron - I saw the original post for Randy's prop for sale - but now I don't see the listing anymore. I have a buddy that thinks its a smokin deal and really wants to buy that 151 prop - do you know if it is still for sale?

Ron G
rongainesrv@yahoo.com

[Ralph Kramden]

I guess I will be buying Hartzell instead! Too bad, I really liked this company...

RK

[BuckWynd]

This is all news to me. I've been planning to use a Whirlwind 151 prop on my RV-8, so I will be VERY closely watching how folks are treated by Whirlwind in the next few months.

To the folks at Whirlwind: You're now on stage, and the curtain just came up. How well you perform with this particular issue will make or break a LOT of sales, mine included. I really, really want to use this prop! Please don't make me "go Hartzell" on you.

[lsu-rv]

Dear WW,
First thanks for coming in here and conversing with us.

I have a LOT of back seat time in one of the RV8's on your websites 151 gallery. That plane and owner have had very minor problems if any at all with the prop. I liked the plane and prop so much that i sold my rv7 tail and ordered a RV8 and planned on hanging a 151 on it.

Now, over past 2 years or so i have watched listened and asked everyone i could about their 151. (kept hearing rumors i did not like) Seems my friend was the lucky one with no problems or maybe there are more out there, i dont' know. History and facts tell me is if i get a 151, i better budget and expect to keep working on it and buy stock in a freight company to Ohio.

Every owner and past owner i have talked to has encouraged me to go the Hartz route and i still like the looks enough to consider your 151. But this issue and cost will be a determining factor. Along with others, I will watch this closely and for sure not go the ww route if ww does not stand better behind their product and what their website advertises.

As a small business owner, I know these decisions are not easy and please don't take my post as a threat. It is not meant to be that. I simply want you to hear from a potential customer who wants badly for your prop to succeed. We as an experimental community need new companies like WW to push the envelope and give us more choices. I can understand you need/want the customer to help bear some of this, but the part i'm understanding they are being asked to pay is just too high. Is the original ww owner making the new replacement blades? And if so, why is his cost so high to fix his original problem?

Just a few thought to ponder and good luck to everyone involved.

jeff H
austin
need prop in about 3-7 months.

[N62XS]

For those of us flying this prop with under 100 hours, the most important question has yet to be ask. ARE WE SAFE? I considered Aerocomposites until research revealed a couple of major, inflight issues with leading edge delamination. While price is an important factor, the safety of my passenger and me are more important.

Second question. If I fly with this prop on my airplane, knowing about the issues, will my insurance pay in the event of any incident, prop or non prop related?

Third question. Resale value on a plane with this prop just took a $10000 hit. If the answers to my questions above are no and no, then most of us will either take a resale hit or spend three months redoing a cowl(Sam James with the 151 extended hub) and buying and installing a new prop/governor.

Last question. If we "upgrade", what guarantee do we have that these blades are any better than the ones we have now and that the company has the pockets to survive the decrease in sales due to this situation. Escrow? Is this Titan or is ths just Whirlwind?

I have discussed this with several individuals that have experience in product recalls and defective designs. All have mentioned warning signs that usuall indicate a company is positioning themselves to limit both liability and monetary exposure. The letter and subsequent posts by Bob were worded in such a way to cause concern.

[randylervold]

Fellow Whirl Wind 151 owners,

As a 151 owner I was as distressed as any of you when I heard the news of the recent service bulletin and thought about the implications, both short term and long term. WW was not immediately forthcoming in working out acceptable solutions for current owners. I know I spoke with both California and Ohio people earlier this week and there was no option made available to me other than to simply purchase a new set of blades for $2,250 thereby turning my $7,500 prop into a $10,000 prop. Not good.

I have learned in subsequent conversations that the folks in Ohio are realizing that the impact of the way they handle this transition is critical to their future and are adopting a more flexible attitude. Bill Koleno has been brought in and tasked specifically with managing this issue, both contributing technically and in handling current owner relations. Bill relayed to me, as he stated earlier in this thread, that they understand each builder's situation is different and that WW needs to show some flexibility on a case-by-case basis. I was able to work out an acceptable solution with them and have decided to stay the course. I was most pleased to hear this change of position.

These forums are simply wonderful, and WW (or any vendor) would be well advised to pay attention to the "voice of the customer" offered just in this thread by WW owners. I commend WW for finally participating. I also commend all you other owners for eloquently pointing out the realities of the market, now I can make this e-mail a bit shorter since you've already covered many of the points.

While this is some serious "turbulence", the simple fact of the matter is that WW still makes the best performing propellers for RV aircraft, I know that from personal experience. I'd hate to walk away from the performance they offer, which fits my particular needs perfectly, but of course need to consider the practical side of any prop solution. That is why I initially decided to bail out and sell my prop. They worked through the issues with the spinner bulkhead on the 200RV and it now appears they are going to work through the 151 blade ferrule situation. This is good news for all of us as it means they are "getting it" and understand that their entire future depends on how well they satisfy their current customers.

If you own a 150 or 151 I encourage current owners to contact Bill Koleno directly and see what can be worked out given your circumstances. It sounds like the new blade ferrule is a signicant improvement and provides improvment in at least two other areas as well including eliminating the grease slinging and the occasional prop that would have loose blades. In the end, we will all end up with significantly better props.

My RV-3B should fly in early to mid June with it's new 151H blades. I'll report back how the 151 performs, and of course how the WW the company performs. We all should do the same.