Propelled Engineering-NEW Rotary FWF company!

[fmarino1976]

from their FAQ:

What about oil injection into the rotor housing area?

The oil injection pump has been disabled and we mix two stroke oil with the gas. The formula is 1 oz. of two stroke oil to 1 gallon of gas.

I don't know about you guys, but this is a turn off for me. You'd have to haul the oil, hoping it doesn't make a mess in the airplane, make sure you remember to add the oil after filling the tanks, keep a measuring device handy, etc.

[rv6ejguy]

I'm with George on this one. IMO, serious people would buy or build an RV, install their FF package and put many hundreds of hours on it. They would post actual data like weight, fuel flow vs. TAS, climb performance etc. on their site. Get the bugs out before they start offering packages to the public. Might cost $75-$100K but they would be able to write it off and give demo flights to customers.

I'd be wary with this much coin until at least one is flying that I could ride in. I wish them well but they are going to need to get their prices down a bit to be really successful.

The lure of auto engines for most would seem to be lower cost, smoother operation, use of pump gas, cheaper OH costs etc. When a company gets a good, reliable conversion down to $15K or so, then I'll be impressed.

[w1curtis]

Originally Posted by rv8ch

I believe if these folks do it right they will be wildly successful and make tons of money.

Eggenfellner is selling dozens of engine packages a year.

I could never figure out why Tracy Crook didn't produce a FWF package, since he sells about 99% of the stuff needed for a package, and he seems to produce quality components.

Best of luck to Art and Cheryl!

Hmm. $28K for an auto conversion putting out ~180 HP. A 180 HP parallel valve TMX IO-360 is around $22K. A TMX IO-390 putting out 210 HP is about $32K; what am I missing here?

Making tons of money might be possible if they can get enough people to shut off their brains. I had a marketing professor that use to use the phrase "will sell well into the dozens" to referring to products he thought was a bust.

I'm continually amazed a what *vendors* are charging for unproven products in the *experimental* market. To me if the certified version of a product cost X, then an unproved, uncertified version should be WAY less than 50% of X for me to even consider it. So many of these vendors assume that they can charge X or in this case 1.3X --what am I missing?

[fstringham7a]

In my previous life ...before RV....I was trying to build a plans built composite two seater ( Vision by American Affordable Aircraft). My engine of choice was a Mazda 13b rebuilt using Tracy Crook's info and products. He has a great manual, great products, large following with many aircraft with rotary engines flying successfully.

Problem for me in the end was my very sloooooow progress building a composite aircraft coupled with some minor problems, For Me, in regards to the 13B. First I am not much of a gear-head, so I knew I probably would have a difficult time building up a FWF package (5 yeaqrs ago). I was concerned with the weight of the engine, the heat it puts out, the exhaust problems, and the problem with not having a motor mount for the engine. I do believe the engine is a tremendous RPM generating plateform. It is very robust with great endurance and is absolutley simple having only three moving parts.

Tracy has solved most if not all of the problems. There is a great motor mount now available. I still don't klnow about the weight, exhaust, heat problems?

So where does this leave me. Well........lycosorause with all the bells and whistles....I have decided to go with the old air cooled tried and true!

I will watch this new company's progress and I do wish them the best. I personally believe if the minor bugs are worked out they will be a great competitor to the egg's and the lyco's.

Frank @ SGU Rv7A "NDY" but the rest of the build stuff is about to be ordered.

[N941WR]

$27,995.00 for a 180 hp engine?

That's all I've got to say.

[cjensen]

Originally Posted by w1curtis

Hmm. $28K for an auto conversion putting out ~180 HP. A 180 HP parallel valve TMX IO-360 is around $22K. A TMX IO-390 putting out 210 HP is about $32K; what am I missing here?

Originally Posted by N941WR

$27,995.00 for a 180 hp engine?

That's all I've got to say.

First, let me preface this by saying that I DID NOT post this as a potential customer of theirs. I am an Eggenfellner customer, and this particular rotary package is not even on my radar. I'm just passing along some info that I got from an article I read today. Okay, now...

What you guys (and MANY others) are missing, or perhaps don't realize, is that the prices listed from this company and Eggenfellner are for FIREWALL FORWARD, less a prop. Your TMX IO-360 engine at $22k is JUST the engine and a few accessories. That's fine, but you will be spending another $4-5k in firewall forward components to mount it, and get it running.

All I'm saying (and I'll argue it all day long) is that NEITHER is cheaper than the other. They will cost about the same money to buy. $22,000 for 180hp IO-360 is the price for a new engine, but don't forget if comparing FWF to FWF, you have to include all the other stuff that goes with it to get your 180 horses running.



__________________

[SteinAir]

Here's what really gets me confused time and time again with companies like this. They may be brilliant engineers, but they've got to be the dummest marketing people in the world. Ok, that may be a bit harsh as I don't even know the guy, and perhaps he is really smart, but....

I mean....a T-18 as a test case!??!? Don't get me wrong, it's a good plane and all, but how many of those are out there being built compared to RV's?? 1:100, 1:500 ?!?!?!

First deltahawk hangs and engine on a Velocity (and in the same stroke of genius decides to try and get the thing certified first), then ATP/Innodyn/whatever hangs one on a super cub, SMA picks a cessna, thielert picks a cessna, then these guys use a T18. Any person with half a business brain would pick the RV....anyday if for not other reason then PURE MARKET DEMOGRAPHIC! It doesn't take a MBA or marketing Phd to figure out that 99% of the available market is RV's....I guess I must be missing something here.

Just my 2 cents as usual!

Cheers,
Stein.

[gmcjetpilot]

Originally Posted by PJSeipel

Not to be contrary, but how are they going to have "many customer built RV's with their FWF" to compile data if everyone waits? You advise people not to go an alternative engine route until the fleet has many thousands of hours on hundreds of customer installs, but just how is a company going to get those hours?

I never said 100's of customers or 1000's of hours, sorry you making up buddy.

Do we expect them to give away free engines to the first 100 customers? I mean, come on George, someone had stick their neck out there and install the first Lycoming, right? PJ Seipel RV-10 #40032

Again you're putting words into my mouth. I've been in and around Alt-Engines for 20 years. No where did I criticize the the engine or say Lycoming anything.

P.S. I have a Lycoming on the front of my RV-10, but I don't understand why we're so quick to poo-poo the guys who want to experiment.

Poo-poo? Right, just saying be careful, and it's not a good value. Sue me.

I'm not going to get into a urination match with your nit picking and inserting words that are not there. If you're looking for a fight, I don't care enough, but please feel free to tell everyone what you think. If you are going to criticise me or anyone, just at least quote them properly.

It's a new company, which frankly is just re-selling RWS parts at a markup. My point is go get RWS parts and cut the middle man out. People have lost money with new "engine" companies. $30,000 is A LOT OF MONEY! However, at the price and what you get I'm sure they will deliver. Heck, if they can sell a $3,000 wankel, PSRU and a few assorted parts in a partial engine kit for $30,000, I might get into that business.

BTW, PJSeipel what is your point, besides hating on me? Next time you have an attitude about my post, send me a private email; than you can tell me what you really think; just try to get your facts straight and make a point please.

[gmcjetpilot]

Originally Posted by fmarino1976

from their FAQ: I don't know about you guys, but this is a turn off for me. You'd have to haul the oil, hoping it doesn't make a mess in the airplane, make sure you remember to add the oil after filling the tanks, keep a measuring device handy, etc.

I am with you. This is a turn off and they use lots of oil. My friend has an RX8, and yes it gets bad gas mileage and uses oil. Wankel guys say its no big deal. You can install an injector to do the work, but it adds weight and you still need to fill the oil tank frequently. On a long X-C flight you need to bring extra oil. I hesitate bringing up Lycs, but I typically go through a little over a quart every 25 hours with a 360.

Also the claimed 180HP? More like 160HP at the prop. Just telling the truth PJSeipel. People should have the facts and not the hype. Even Tracy's own RV-4 races in the 160HP class. What does that tell you.

[Pilottonny]

This is not the only FWF rotary package becoming available!! Mistral from Switzerland have a 2 rotor (190 / 230 hp) and a 3 rotor (300 / 360 hp) rotary engine, which are actually flying. http://www.mistral-engines.com/

I had a long talk with the CEO: Francois Badoux, at Aero Friedrichshafen.

Although the installed weight of these engines is the same as a Lycoming with the same power, this is not some Auto conversion! It is build for aviation use: they are certifying these engines, with double electronic ignition, double electronic fuel injection, double fuel pumps and double Fadec controls. They use ceramic seals and their goal is a 4.000 hr. TBO.

The 230 hp turbo version is flying in their Arrow III in the USA. There is an RV builder installing one in an RV8. A major aircraft manufacturer is testing a twin with two 190 hp engines,??. and so on (so you see, this is not a copy of the Innodyn story).

Also Mistral are looking to compile a FWF kit for the 6 and 7, by the end of this year. There is really not going to be a lot to it, because the engines come over complete, standard, with all the accessories, cable loom, pumps, FADEC?s, EMS, etc. and they fit the Dynofocal 1 engine mount. All you need is a new cowl and some brackets to attach the coolers.

A certified 190 hp engine, with all of the above mentioned parts included, for $ 31.500,- that can officially run on Avgas as well as on Mogas, where are you going to find that? An IOX-360 Lyclone with double electronic ignition, FWF kit and the Fuel pump kit from Vans and the cheapest EMS on the market, is a lot more expensive than that! (and still no FADEC, or double injection and pumps!) I would have ordered it straight away, if it would not be that it has to much HP for my 9A and the weight is that of an O-360.

Mistral were at Osh last year and they will be again this year. Actually they are right next to Vans! Go and see them.

Oh,? and George,? please, I do not want to get into a discussion about this Supplier,? their engines,? the turbo,... the fuel consumption,? whether FADEC is use full or not,? the rotary versus the Lycoming,? Mogas versus Avgas,? etc? etc? Just wanted to let everybody know what options there are. Thanks, PilotTonny.