Does anyone have a FADEC engine?

[Blastr42]

This may belong on one of the engine threads, but does anyone have a FADEC controlled engine? I've read a little about some of the systems out there (like aerosance's kit) but the only production airplane that I know that has them "out of the box" is the DA 42 TwinStar. After learning to fly in a 172 I have sworn that I will minimize the amount of work I have to do as a pilot and have less knobs if I can, I think a FADEC engine could be the answer to my prayers (if I have the $$$)

PS, I don't want this to turn into a "real men fly airplanes with all the knobs, buttons, levers, steam gauges and other things you can imagine" debate. As an engineer, I find beauty in simplicity and replacing 3 knobs with 1 would be wonderful.

Any thoughts?

[zkvii]

Hi,

Simple answer:
Yes there are RVs flying with AeroSance FADEC ignition / fuel metering, No it doesn't remove the pitch / RPM control - just the red mixture knob is gone.

Slightly longer:
Yes there are a number of RVs flying and more being built with the FADEC system, Mattituck have been invovled with AeroSance for a while and actively involved with the testing / trials. Ken Barto (6A), David Schaefer (6A), Mark Taylor (7) are some of the better known 'identities' with FADEC RVs and Aart / Rene (7), Myself (7A) and others are well into the final stages.

The primary challenge as far as my experience goes has been the firewall layout and planning, with the prop gov, dual batteries and two ECUs (the main firewall forward ignition 'blocks') everything gets pretty tight for space.

After going down the road - my current feelings are it is 'the right engineering solution' for a compromise between 'traditional' lycoming engine and a new auto-conversion - best of both worlds and it will get progresively more economic as the price of AvGas continues to rise (particually for non USA flyers). Of course the proof will only come once I'm flying!

There is a specific Yahoo group (AeroSance_FADEC) if you are interested, it is low volume and has more people / aircraft (including non-RVs).

Just a few thoughts,

Carl

[rv6ejguy]

We have provided FADECs for several Lycoming, Continental and Franklin engines plus hundreds of automotive conversions over the last 10 years. Once properly programmed, the system does make engine management easier on the pilot.

Twin batteries and/or twin alternators are recommended.

[Blastr42]

Thanks for the responses.

Do any of the after market FADEC systems have rpm control too?

Also, how is the state of some of the certified Lycontinental engines that I've heard have been in development for years and are still probably years away from seeing the light of day?

[gmcjetpilot]

Originally Posted by Blastr42

Thanks for the responses.

Do any of the after market FADEC systems have rpm control too?

Also, how is the state of some of the certified Lycontinental engines that I've heard have been in development for years and are still probably years away from seeing the light of day?

No, I called and asked.

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE LANCAIR'S THAT DON'T HAVE A PROP CONTROL?

Well they have a mechanical linkage with the throttle. Basically with full throttle you have full rpm. As you pull the throttle back the RPM goes back with some pre programed cam. You could do that without a FADEC if you want. It basically just limits your RPM control with either FULL or NOT FULL.

AeroSance did try it. They had a servo controlled prop governor. They found it was not worth it.

I don't mean to bust your chops but WHY? Is it really too much to have a BLUE KNOB? I mean automatic trans cars are great so you can drive, drink you coffee and talk on the cel phone (I am kidding I hate that), but in a plane how much work is the PROP.

Start the engine - blue knob....don't touch (0)
Run up - Move in and out as needed (1)
Take off - don't touch blue knob (0)
Climb - set climb rpm as needed (0 or 1)
Cruise - adjust once, set cruise RPM (1)
Descent - leave alone or reduce RPM as desired (0)
Pattern - once slow (abeam #'s) push full fwd (1)
Land, taxi shutdown - BLUE KNOB? nothing (0)
Total 3 or 4

So you touch it three or four times in one flight. Total time to adjust, 15-20 seconds of the flight? Usually you do it by ear, second nature by feel with out thinking of it, if you did not know. Its like shifting a car, you don't really think about it or stare at the shift stick and clutch pedal. But unlike a car you only go "though the gears" once on a flight.

I am not trying to talk down to you. You may be a 20,000 ATP with all kinds of complex piston experience, but for others reading, with about 3-5 hours of training and after about 20 hours of experience you will be very comfortable with the blue knob. It was a mystery to me before I learned, and I had to think about it. Now its second nature.

People tend to make things complicated in their head. Constant Speed props are very easy to use if you just know your basics. Of course if you are in crusie and you want to go BACK to climb and than cruise again, you might want or need to adjust the blue knob twice, but frankly you can just leave it in one spot and fly it like a fixed pitch prop plane. I'm not recommending that; it's like driving your car in 2nd gear all day.

However the point is the elimination of the blue knob is not really a big deal. SAME WITH THE MIXTURE. You touch it about 2 or 3 times in a flight.

I just DON'T get it. I know the idea of having a single knob like a jet is cool, but its kind of mystery to me on a personal piston light plane. For a large complex pressurized piston twin with BIG ENGINES, that are earning a living as a charter, corporate or freight plane, yep FADEC and auto-prop-rpm-mixture could be worth while. It's just my opinion that its really not value added for a RV, specially when cost, weight and complexity of installation are factored in.

FADEC gives more savings on a LARGE 6 cylinder than a little 4 banger; its a bit like a gold plated toilet seat, nice but does not help the main mission that much, verses cost. A plane flying 100 hours a year is not a good candidate for a FADEC.


THERE ARE CERTIFIED FADEC'S AND THERE IS A LIST OF THEM ON AeroSance's wen site.

PS: Vans Aircraft FLYS a FADEC in one or two of their factory RV demonstrator / prototypes. An article was written in the RVator a few years ago about their FADEC. That would be more info for you. Call Van on Monday and ask them, they will tell you their opinion.

[captainron]

Why not go with a fixed pitch prop? No more "work" than on the 172, but it will fly a lot better. Craig Catto makes props that would make most reasonable people question the need for a constant-speed prop on a plane with the power to weight ratio like the Vans. Also, easier on the budget you mentioned.

[rv6ejguy]

Originally Posted by Blastr42

Thanks for the responses.

Do any of the after market FADEC systems have rpm control too?

Also, how is the state of some of the certified Lycontinental engines that I've heard have been in development for years and are still probably years away from seeing the light of day?

Interesting that the FW190 had linked throttle, mixture, supercharger and prop control with mechanical systems and 60 years later we don't see widespread use of this even with FADECs! Of course, nobody is shooting at you in an RV.

Prop control not a big deal since the governor keeps this at whatever rpm you select.

[Rene Bubberman]

My primary reason for using Fadec is NOT a lower knob-count BUT better motor management, smoother run, less wear, a little bit more power per gallon and a slightly less fuel burn.
Besides that, installing Fadec is slightly more complicated (see: http://websites.expercraft.com/PHVII...ry&log_id=7844 and beyond) but gives the advantage of providing you with a serial enginedata signal which can be fed directly in most engine monitors and Efisses.
Not yet flying so I'm still curious if everything works out as advertised but the first impressions look promising.

[L.Adamson]

From AVweb (electronic newspaper) 4/26/07

"Both engines of a DA42 Twinstar quit shortly after takeoff in Germany last month, and now Diamond is saying it was caused by an engine problem while Thielert says it was an airframe issue, Flight International reported this week. The accident airplane's battery had drained overnight and the pilots had apparently started both engines using an external power unit, which is contrary to the published operating procedure that requires one engine to be started by the onboard battery alone. Both Thielert Centurion 1.7 engines stopped when the pilot retracted the gear, which took all available electrical power to accomplish. This caused a very brief interruption in electrical voltage to the two engine control units, and in turn the diesel engines simultaneously quit on climbout. The crew made a belly landing in a field adjacent to the airport. The European Aviation Safety Agency has ordered the companies to work it out and come up with a solution to prevent the problem from occurring again."

[Ron Lee]

I saw one FADEC system (maybe aerosonce...maybe not) in a 7A here. Looked like too much weight, cost, complexity to manage an engine. The owner had issues during the test flight period which may have been resolved but his aircraft was recently destroyed (or significantly damaged) when the engine lost power in flight. Was it the FADEC? No idea.

Personally if I had extra money to throw at something I would get a really big screen EFIS. A Constant speed prop and one electronic ignition will serve you well to minimize fuel consumption. Plus knowing how to lean the mixture.

If you gave me a FADEC system I would not install it.