Legal IFR with experimental EFIS?

[tonyjohnson]

I am planning my panel and have a question which has a direct and significant bearing on what I will install for IFR.

I am considering a SL 30 nav/com and a GRT sport with internal GPS. The type of non certified GPS is probably not important in this question.

For a VOR DME approach, you have to have of course, VOR and DME. Can the distance information from an EFIS with a GPS, or other uncertififed GPS, be used legally?

Can the CDI displayed by the EFIS be used as the only CDI to display localizer and glideslope information, legally?

In other words, would the combination of SL30 and GRT sport light be a legal combination for IFR?

Thanks,

Tony

[gmcjetpilot]

Oh Gosh not this again. Tony, buddy heads up there are some very good, long and detailed threads on this already. Good luck, Have a good week end.

Can the CDI displayed by the EFIS be used as the only CDI to display localizer and glideslope information, legally?

Yes, you can fly raw data, VOR, LOC or GS from the SL30 and it can be displayed on an "experimental display", aka EFIS, if it has the handshake (protocol). It is legal.

If your GRT EFIS can display DME data from a DME receiver, than great.

"For a VOR DME approach, you have to have of course, VOR and DME. Can the distance information from an EFIS with a GPS, or other uncertified GPS, be used legally?"

NO

If the plate says DME you needed DME receiver, period, end of story. Don't get GPS approaches and VOR/DME mixed up. IF the plate says "VOR/DME or GPS RWY 23", than yes you can use IFR GPS for that DME fix. The GRT GPS is not IFR approved, so forget it.

The GPS must be a TSO'ed IFR GPS receiver to be used for ANY IFR operation. As you indicate you know the GRT is not TSO'ed. I guess what part of NOT IFR approved is hard to understand? You can NOT fly a VOR/DME without a DME, and you can NOT use a VFR GPS as a substitute legally and officially for any IFR navigation, ever ever ever ever. That is pretty straight forward.

None of the experimental units have IFR TSO'd GPS, period, likely never will. You want an IFR EFIS with IFR GPS integral, shell out $40k for a Chelton EFIS. You can always buy a used IFR GPS for $2000-$3000. You can go whole hog and get one of the new Garmin's with the Com/VOR/LOC/GS/MB/GPS/MAP all in one, $8,000-$14,000. That may be the way to go?

If you just want to shoot ILS, LOC and VOR approaches than the SL30 and GRT will do. The built in VFR GPS can be an un-offical situational aid or help.

[tonyjohnson]

George, Thanks for your reply. I know that the issue of IFR equipment has been raised before. I think I have read all those threads, as well as some articles on the topic. I wanted to focus my question a little more than the information in the past threads which were more general, at least the ones that I recall.

I want to make sure that I have a clear understanding before I start buying avionics and putting out big bucks.

So, the CDI or HSI on an experimental EFIS is legal. That is a direct answer to one of my important questions and valuable information.

Regarding the second issue, DME....my instrument instructor taught me that a certified GPS distance readout can be a legal substitute for DME. I almost never see DME equipment anymore. It seems that you may disagree with that George, since you said that only DME can provide DME info for a VOR DME approach. I take the point that even if distance information can be legally provided by a GPS, it must be a certified GPS.

I would be interested in the observations of those of you who are equipped with a nav radio like the SL30 and experimental EFIS combination. Do you find it too limiting, would you do it differently next time?

[hevansrv7a]

Originally Posted by tonyjohnson

Regarding the second issue, DME....my instrument instructor taught me that a certified GPS distance readout can be a legal substitute for DME. I almost never see DME equipment anymore. It seems that you may disagree with that George, since you said that only DME can provide DME info for a VOR DME approach. I take the point that even if distance information can be legally provided by a GPS, it must be a certified GPS.

http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/1999/991213gps.html

This says that IFR Certified GPS can be substituted for DME. Read it all, though. There are some gotcha's.

While it is technically true that a horizontal distance is not equal to a slant distance (GPS, DME respectively), the policy is clear. At least AOPA and I think so.

[frankh]

Cus I been using my 430 to provide DME all the time...and my checkride examiner even watched me do it....At least I think he was watching me...

Frank

[w1curtis]

Originally Posted by tonyjohnson

For a VOR DME approach, you have to have of course, VOR and DME. Can the distance information from an EFIS with a GPS, or other uncertififed GPS, be used legally?

For VOR/DME approaches, No.

Originally Posted by tonyjohnson

Can the CDI displayed by the EFIS be used as the only CDI to display localizer and glideslope information, legally?

Yes.

Originally Posted by tonyjohnson

In other words, would the combination of SL30 and GRT sport light be a legal combination for IFR?

Yes for VOR/LOC approaches. No for VOR DME GPS approaches. MHO.

[w1curtis]

Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot

If the plate says DME you needed DME receiver, period, end of story. Don't get GPS approaches and VOR/DME mixed up. IF the plate says "VOR/DME or GPS RWY 23", than yes you can use IFR GPS for that DME fix. The GRT GPS is not IFR approved, so forget it.

Well not exactly. An IFR (enroute or approach certified) GPS may substitute for a DME.

Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot

The GPS must be a TSO'ed IFR GPS receiver to be used for ANY IFR operation. As you indicate you know the GRT is not TSO'ed. I guess what part of NOT IFR approved is hard to understand? You can NOT fly a VOR/DME without a DME, and you can NOT use a VFR GPS as a substitute legally and officially for any IFR navigation, ever ever ever ever. That is pretty straight forward.

Again, not exactly. If you are under radar coverage and the controller allows, you could use a handheld, non-certified GPS, etc. to navigate direct to a fix. The key here is that you are under radar coverage. Controllers do this all the time. Even though you are NOT /G, controllers frequently ask "can you navigate direct to XYZ" doesn't matter how since you are on radar. This is just to address that "ANY IFR operation" comment.

Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot

None of the experimental units have IFR TSO'd GPS, period, likely never will. You want an IFR EFIS with IFR GPS integral, shell out $40k for a Chelton EFIS. You can always buy a used IFR GPS for $2000-$3000. You can go whole hog and get one of the new Garmin's with the Com/VOR/LOC/GS/MB/GPS/MAP all in one, $8,000-$14,000. That may be the way to go?

There is nothing about the Chelton (or other EFIS, except maybe the G900/G1000 with their integral TSO GPS) that makes it "an IFR EFIS." Neither the certified or experimental unit includes an integral IFR GPS. Both offer the option of the Freeflight IFR GPS, but if you are going to spend the money for that, you would be better of with a standard GNS-430/480 GPS. Are you seriously suggesting folks buy a 40K Chelton and the attach it to a cheap GPS? A better suggestion would be to just get a GNS-430/480 and attach it to whatever EFIS you want; experimental or other. Then you would be IFR legal for ALL approaches.

An SL-30 is about $4000, a GNS-430W is about $8000. Get the 430W, attached it to whatever EFIS you want and you will be all set for ALL approaches.

[osxuser]

SL-30 is a much more capable radio than the 430 sans GPS. I really still like the GX-50/60 series GPS with the SL30, they work really well together, and the GX60 is dead simple to use.

[kevinsky18]

?I guess what part of NOT IFR approved is hard to understand?? George that?s a harsh statement.

We are building experimental planes so I think it?s a valid question to ask whether we need certified IFR equipment or not. How many other parts of our aircraft are not certified? Engines often are not, airframe isn?t, almost any other certified part you can think of can be substituted with a non certified part. Ignitions, alternators, wheels, brakes, and yes even avionics . . . really every other part except IFR equipment????

Experimental seems to have lost it?s meaning on many people. Why is it that we are allowed to test a non-certified car engine in real world flying conditions but not test a non-ifr-certified gps in IFR conditions? I have a 480 and a 396 and I can tell you that more often than not I prefer the display and situational awareness of the 396 over the 480 and I strongly believe both are equally reliable for the type of mild IFR flying that I do.

I haven?t looked into this further so I can?t say for certain but my gut tells me there must be some leeway for using non certified IFR equipment under the experimental umbrella.

[Ron Lee]

Kevin, the line is likely drawn at navigation since to fly IFR the systems must meet stringent requirements. You do not want someone going off of established "error" limits with a handheld GPS that does not perform integrity for example.

I am not the expert on this but I find it hard to believe that non IFR approved (TSO'd ?) navigation equipment can be used for IFR ops.