F-1011D misdrilled angle - Page 2

JonJay · #11 05-22-2019, 06:55 PM

For future reference, you are not allowed to drill into the inside radius of an angle. I will try to dig up the spec on what the leg to hole edge minimum is for a specific angle. I have seen it, but can?t recall the reference.
Good you are replacing for that and other reasons mentioned.

MJarreau · #12 05-22-2019, 07:53 PM

In the image posted, it looks like the 470 rivet in F-1011B aft of F-1011C was installed with the die not centered on the rivet and damage was caused to F-1011B. Is this construction acceptable? (This is not intended to cause thread creep, or insult anyone - just educate myself.)

Thanks,
Mike

Brantel · #13 05-22-2019, 08:02 PM

Definitely replace....likely going to need to do additional rework after you get those rivets drilled out.

Several things in that pic need to be addressed. Do you have a tech counselor nearby to come and give it a look?

robjohnson · #14 05-22-2019, 08:06 PM

Please see title of this post -- I am absolutely not trying to be critical at all, and there is a wide range of what constitutes airworthiness and finishing techniques. I do intend this to be absolutely helpful --

- are you edge prepping your parts? There are some serious cut marks on the angle and it looks like the vertical bars and other parts may not have been prepped.
- for the bolt holes that go through the longerons, do you have any material on the longerons at all that is surrounding the bolt (where the washer/nut goes)? With the angle cut so short, I wonder if there is any material on the longeron at all or not...
- not being critical on the misdrilled holes, but they don't look deburred like one typically would do. Fair to assume that these just weren't deburred because of the misdrilled nature?

Again, please take this with the most positive, constructive tone possible. We all were new builders once, and this journey is one of continuous education. I just want to help you out with some aspects that may be a problem for you now or in the future with the build. Please reach out directly via a PM or email if you'd like to chat.

echozulu · #15 05-22-2019, 08:30 PM

I will try to address what I can.

JonJay, I found what you are talking about. I believe it is in AC43.13, and they set out a minimum setback from the radius of an angle.

MJarreau, I'm not sure. To be honest, I don't think it's an issue. While the rivet itself is not up to standards per Section 5 & AC43.13, my judgement is that drilling it out tends to damage the skin and surrounding areas more. Of course, being a first time builder, judgement may be suspect and all that. You can see this issue repeat itself four more times across F-1011B & the angle. If more experienced builders think it's an issue and recommend replacement, please do speak up.

Brantel - Unfortunately, I'm in the *** end of nowhere so Vans Support & the forum is the best I have. The nearest tech counselor is 2~3 hours away. I'm planning on either moving soon (well definitely moving soon but whether or not that's before I complete empennage...) or asking someone really nicely to come do a once over once I complete the empennage. I've annotated the build plans with all the places with in my eyes suspect construction that I want a second pair of eyes on, but again, as someone with no experience I probably missed whatever I don't know/understand. Shoot me a message of what you see if you have time?

Rob - I totally understand! Edge prepping - I run a v-deburring tool around the edges to get rid of the burrs and follow it up with a pass or two of sand paper but that's it. Am I supposed to be smoothing everything out? I just get rid of anything sticking up. For the bolt holes, yes! I had to double check but I wouldn't think I'd miss something so big, then again you never know. It's right about smack in the middle of the longeron. I don't think it would be an issue since the hole is measured from the tip of the angle, and as you can see the tip is still aligned with the doubler, it's the angle that the "support angle" was cut that is an issue. Deburring - Yeah those holes are not deburred at all. I generally run a hex deburr that lightly chamfers the holes.

And yes, if there's anything else that you could see done wrong I absolutely want to know!

Scott Hersha · #16 05-22-2019, 09:19 PM

This part needs to be replaced. Not sure about the underlying structure because we can't see it. From the picture it looks like your rivet set for the universal head rivets is either under sized, or not held at the right angle. It looks like most of yours are either over driven, or set improperly, including one or more on the aft side of the HS forward spar. This is a critical part of the airframe and errors in this area must be few and far between. Find a tech counselor or DAR to take a look before you go further on this part of the build.
That's my suggestion. I'm sorry if I sound critical, but the pictures suggest a closer look.

Lionclaw · #17 05-22-2019, 09:34 PM

Not trying to pile on even more -- but if I understood the plans correctly when I did mine, the edge of the turtle deck skin should be on the apex of the longeron angle.

Tom Martin · #18 05-23-2019, 03:17 AM

You need some help. If a tech counsellor is too far then find a multiple builder and pay for his fuel to fly over. These parts are not acceptable, but education is at the heart of the process. Although it hurts to have your work criticized your instincts were telling you that something was wrong. Fixing this area correctly, with help, will be a satisfying and valuable experience.

Electrogunner · #19 05-23-2019, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by echozulu

I will try to address what I can.

JonJay, I found what you are talking about. I believe it is in AC43.13, and they set out a minimum setback from the radius of an angle.

MJarreau, I'm not sure. To be honest, I don't think it's an issue. While the rivet itself is not up to standards per Section 5 & AC43.13, my judgement is that drilling it out tends to damage the skin and surrounding areas more. Of course, being a first time builder, judgement may be suspect and all that. You can see this issue repeat itself four more times across F-1011B & the angle. If more experienced builders think it's an issue and recommend replacement, please do speak up.

Brantel - Unfortunately, I'm in the *** end of nowhere so Vans Support & the forum is the best I have. The nearest tech counselor is 2~3 hours away. I'm planning on either moving soon (well definitely moving soon but whether or not that's before I complete empennage...) or asking someone really nicely to come do a once over once I complete the empennage. I've annotated the build plans with all the places with in my eyes suspect construction that I want a second pair of eyes on, but again, as someone with no experience I probably missed whatever I don't know/understand. Shoot me a message of what you see if you have time?

Rob - I totally understand! Edge prepping - I run a v-deburring tool around the edges to get rid of the burrs and follow it up with a pass or two of sand paper but that's it. Am I supposed to be smoothing everything out? I just get rid of anything sticking up. For the bolt holes, yes! I had to double check but I wouldn't think I'd miss something so big, then again you never know. It's right about smack in the middle of the longeron. I don't think it would be an issue since the hole is measured from the tip of the angle, and as you can see the tip is still aligned with the doubler, it's the angle that the "support angle" was cut that is an issue. Deburring - Yeah those holes are not deburred at all. I generally run a hex deburr that lightly chamfers the holes.

And yes, if there's anything else that you could see done wrong I absolutely want to know!

If you would like, I could come down and take a look at what you have there. I completed my 10 earlier this year. During my build I had several tech counselors, A&P's and even FAA DAR come visit me during my build to give their blessings on build techniques and quality before moving on. That is my only qualifications but I think I can steer you in the right directions. I'm only about 45-50min flight away. Give me a call and we can set up a time one weekend coming up if you want. Cell# 443-865-9671.

Brantel · #20 05-23-2019, 05:55 AM

I am by no means an expert builder and this is only intended to give you a comparison, but here is what that area looks like on my current RV-10 build....

I would not move forward without consulting someone with experience. This stuff is hard to fix if you get too far down the road. I would also imagine that your tail feathers will need some attention as well based on the image you posted.

It is a right of passage.....