Always get flight following

[Latech15]

I took my daughter up today for a little fun flight. We took off VFR from my home airport (non towered) and flew over our house - about 10 miles away. We then called approach and flew an approach to the local class D airport for some fuel and popcorn. We left there VFR to the practice area and did a few stalls and positive/negative G pulls, then headed back towards home.

I let my daughter take the controls and head us “towards that water tower” at 3000 feet. I was concentrating on talking her through the controls and what to look out for. I soon noticed a target on my map at my same altitude headed across my path at the same altitude and at about 3 miles. I couldn’t find the plane, so I took the controls, gave it full power and went into a climbing right turn. I started getting the traffic warnings when I was within one mile of the other craft. I got to about 3500 when I spotted the plane. Sure enough, straight ahead and climbing to my altitude. I was still in a climbing right turn so I just continued. He finally saw me and cut his plane to his right and we stared at each other’s eyeballs as we passed entirely too close to each other.

First of all, the FAR’s say to avoid traffic to the right. Apparently this guy was still turning left. I don’t know if he saw me until right at the end or not. If it hadn’t been for him having adsb out, and for my having adsb in, and paying attention to it, we would have been much closer. It appears he was in a climb, so he SHOULD have had better visibility of me than I did him, but that wouldn’t help if we were both hurdling toward the ground after a mid- air.

I entered the pattern at my home airport still reeling from this event. I landed and rolled out down the runway. Turned off at the end and stopped when I noticed a cub taking off on the parallel grass strip next to the runway I had just landed on. He was passing right over my head as I stopped rolling. There was barely enough room for me to clear the runway before I was in front of the grass strip. I got on the radio and asked if the traffic was hearing my radio calls and he answered “Shore did, I came in right behind you”. He never made a peep. He stayed in the pattern for a few touch and goes and never made the first radio call.

I was glad to be parking it after those two interactions.

Lesson learned, always get flight following even if you are just hoping 10 miles between local airports. I would hope that they would have been able to give me some warning about both of these yahoos.

[Robin8er]

Agreed. One time I had center ask if I was flying in formation. I replied "negative". They reported an airplane "same altitude same direction same location"

It took about 30 seconds for me to find him. He was less than 100 feet above me. We were both tracking to a VOR, he wasnt on frequency. Fortunately the 172 I was in had a sky roof, if not I wouldn't have seen him.

With that said, I dont even know if center would give you flight following for a 10 mile flight. I've never tried it, but they usually terminate my flight following about 10 miles from my destination.

[BobTurner]

Originally Posted by Latech15

First of all, the FAR’s say to avoid traffic to the right.

I would hope that they would have been able to give me some warning about both of these yahoos.

1. Can you steer me to the FAR? I know it says when overtaking, pass to the right. But otherwise, I think it's left to your best judgement.

2. Yahoo seems a bit strong for a guy who was three miles away, and would have easily passed 500' over you if you hadn't initiated a climb.

3. Once you're on the ground and taxiing, it's your responsibility to not enter another active runway. If they're so close together that you can't exit one without entering another, maybe someone should take a look at that airport layout.

[Latech15]

Bob -

It appears you want to play devils advocate. Ok. I?ll play along with you.

In the first instance, you see a target on the map at your same altitude on a converging course, at 3 miles. You have about 35 seconds before convergence. I had no evidence that he was climbing until i finally made visual contact at 3500. You see him coming at you at your altitude and you do what? Only turn? No sir. I know I can out climb most aircraft so I did both of the things that I thought would get me away from him. Climb and turn. I would make that same decision again.

As for the landing traffic, are you actually taking the side of the guy who landed parallel to other traffic at an uncontrolled airport, who made zero radio calls in three laps in the pattern? Not to mention, the only exit off the runway I was using was into the grass runway path. If you are taking from this situation that the airport needs to be examined, then I will just have to discount you as a guy who wants to argue. First of all, if he had been making radio calls, we could have coordinated approaches where there would be no possible interferences. Secondly, what if I had been doing a touch and go with normal left hand traffic? We would have surely had issues.

[lr172]

As much as I HATE people who have a radio and won't use it to advise their take off and landing intentions, It is hard to blame the guy who landed on a parallel runway to yours for a touch and go. I am with Bob, you are the one that must give way to other traffic before crossing their runway. Just because you landed first, doesn't necessarily give you priority for taxiing across other runways. Before turning off your runway, you are obligated to insure that you yield to aircraft on other active runways, if that turn off will cause you to cross another active runway. I guess I am too accustomerd to towered airports, where you quickly learn that you don't turn off a runway until cleared onto a taxiway. At least not past the hold short line. Either way, you are expected to stay on the runway until taxiing area is clear and they make it VERY clear you don't cross active runways without their approval; Meaning someone is insuring that their is not another aircraft using that runway. This makes it second nature for me that this is MY obligation at non-towered airports. Years ago this clearance was not required and now it is. Likely because lots of accidents happen due to taxiing across active runways.

Intersecting runways at untowered airports scare me, because there is always some #%$%@ who won't announce his intentions and landing traffic on the intersecting runway can be much harder to spot than traffic in my pattern;

Personally I have learned my lesson and wouldn't have done what the cub did, as I would have assumed the guy on the parallel would turn right into my runway at the end of his roll out without first looking. Doesn't mean I think he would have been right, only that it was likely for him to do it.

Larry

[BobTurner]

Originally Posted by Latech15

Bob -

It appears you want to play devils advocate. Ok. I?ll play along with you.

In the first instance, you see a target on the map at your same altitude on a converging course, at 3 miles. You have about 35 seconds before convergence. I had no evidence that he was climbing until i finally made visual contact at 3500. You see him coming at you at your altitude and you do what? Only turn? No sir. I know I can out climb most aircraft so I did both of the things that I thought would get me away from him. Climb and turn. I would make that same decision again.

As for the landing traffic, are you actually taking the side of the guy who landed parallel to other traffic at an uncontrolled airport, who made zero radio calls in three laps in the pattern? Not to mention, the only exit off the runway I was using was into the grass runway path. If you are taking from this situation that the airport needs to be examined, then I will just have to discount you as a guy who wants to argue. First of all, if he had been making radio calls, we could have coordinated approaches where there would be no possible interferences. Secondly, what if I had been doing a touch and go with normal left hand traffic? We would have surely had issues.

For the first case, I have no issue with your actions: you did what was necessary to avoid a collision. I only objected to your calling the other pilot a "yahoo". From his perspective, he might think you were the issue. It is unfortunate that this sort of thing (both pilots decide to climb) happens enough that the heavy metal guys have a black box that tells one guy to climb, the other to descend. We just have to use our best judgement, which you did (except for the name calling).

As to the runway incursion, I see someone else has already responded. Yes, the Cub should have been making radio calls, that's just common sense. But not everyone has common sense (or a radio), and the FARs are on their side.

[sailvi767]

Just to make sure there is no confusion from this thread. At a controlled airport you are required to exit the runway and insure your aircraft is clear of the runway if no other instruction is received by ATC. You do not require permission to exit onto a taxiway.
G

[Latech15]

Originally Posted by BobTurner

1. Can you steer me to the FAR? I know it says when overtaking, pass to the right. But otherwise, I think it's left to your best judgement.

2. Yahoo seems a bit strong for a guy who was three miles away, and would have easily passed 500' over you if you hadn't initiated a climb.

3. Once you're on the ground and taxiing, it's your responsibility to not enter another active runway. If they're so close together that you can't exit one without entering another, maybe someone should take a look at that airport layout.

91.113 part e

Approaching head-on. When aircraft are approaching each other head-on, or nearly so, each pilot of each aircraft shall alter course to the right.

[BillL]

Jeff, thanks for the report, but I am not sure FF would have helped.

I too have adsb in/out and was doing a visual RNAV approach to a local field. I saw and heard a plane in the pattern. I was 18 he was 36. I announced 2 times, had on the Baja lights and offset a mile to enter the left downwind. Suddenly, I see him climbing and heading right for me with a left turn from the takeoff. A mile away, but still, I started to go left as he apparently did not hear my calls, then he turned back right so did I. Precious seconds went by before it was clear he really saw us. We cleared by 1/4 mile, but then he is on the radio razzing me. It was a training flight and the instructor was not looking. It was the instructor who took issue. I went back and looked at the flight aware tracks to ensure what I remembered was correct. Confirmed.

Thanks for the reminder, we have to be careful out there, even if someone is talking on the radio, it does not mean they are listening. Or apparently, looking.

Edit: C airspace was only 400 feet above me so did not use the typical RV climb to escape the situation.

[lr172]

Originally Posted by sailvi767

Just to make sure there is no confusion from this thread. At a controlled airport you are required to exit the runway and insure your aircraft is clear of the runway if no other instruction is received by ATC. You do not require permission to exit onto a taxiway.
G

I am sure that is correct and makes sense, as uncommon as it is. Only sharing the stinging of a nasty slap on the wrist that I received from a ground controller years ago. Was told by tower where to turn off and switch to grd. Switched to ground and heard the barking. The grd controller made it VERY clear that I was not allowed on an active taxiway without instructions/clearance from her. In that case, and what I understand now as protocol, I was expected to hold on the rwy side of the hold short line (technically still the active rwy) until given instructions by grd. This was a somewhat typical case, where the turnoffs are all short connectors to the main parallel taxiway.

This rule, as I understand it makes sense, as it is not uncommon at larger airports for there to be active taxiing during landing ops and cannot simply jump off the runway without some form or traffic management. I can't remember the last time I was not given instructions for turning off the runway. Just advising folks that an instruction of "turn off at B4 instersection (small connector to parallel taxiway) and contact ground" is NOT a clearance to enter onto taxiway Bravo (parallel taxiway). "exit at B4 and proceed south on Bravo" would be a clearance to proceed onto Bravo taxiway.

Larry