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01-03-2019, 08:05 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Newport, TN
Posts: 7,496
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Where does the air data for your setup come from? Love the outside the box thinking!
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01-03-2019, 09:12 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 4,435
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Some of the 2 1/4" radios have a remote radio with a small display. It would change the look but eliminate the issue of panel depth.
Dave
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01-03-2019, 10:03 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 534
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Steve,
While I?m a big fan of using the iPad as an EFB, I?m not comfortable using them as primarily flight instruments. I have the iPad Pro with Retina display and it?s great for EFB purposes. However, it does ?wash out? in direct sun light (no matter how high my brightness was set). It was also prone to overheating when I placed it on a homemade panel bracket and allowed direct sun to hit it.
I?m sure bracketbuilt fans behind the mounted iPad providing cooler air will help with the over heating issue but direct sun will still wash out the display. I commend your efforts and the engineering involved but I just don?t trust iPads in higher temps and direct sunlight for primary flight instrumentation. As a backup device, okay - but not primary. If you?re going to create a panel test bed then please include at least some conventional primary flight instrumentation as a backup to the iPad approach. Its a safety concern.
Maybe your testing will prove me horribly wrong but I don?t think so.
__________________
Jim Harris, ATP, T38, EC/KC-135A/E/R, 2008 RV7A, 2nd owner, N523RM (2015)
Superior XPIO-360, Hartzel CS prop, Aerotronics panel with Dual GRT Horizon WS, EIS, Garmin 340, 335 w/WAAS gps, Dual 430s (non-WAAS), TruTrak 385 A/P with auto-level, Electric trim, Tosten 6 button Military Grips, FlightBox wired to WS, Dynon D10A w/battery backup, 406 MHz ELT. Custom Interior, New TS Flightline hoses, Great POH!
Retired - Living the dream - going broke!
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01-03-2019, 10:38 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sunman, IN
Posts: 2,189
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Hmm...
I use a 10.5 iPad Pro for work, and I fly about 850 hours per year. The iPad is in a Pivot brand case on a side window mount. It is not used for a PFD but I have not experienced any more "washout" on the iPad than I get on the PFDs. I have not experienced any overheating problems either...
Just another data point...
__________________
Bob
Aerospace Engineer '88
RV-10
Structure - 90% Done
Cabin Top - Aaarrghhh...
EFII System 32 - Done
297 HP Barrett Hung
ShowPlanes Cowl with Skybolts Fitted - Beautiful
Wiring...
Dues+ Paid 2019,...Thanks DR+
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01-03-2019, 11:22 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Cupertino, California
Posts: 109
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OP follow up...
Thanks for all the ideas. Please keep them coming!
In response to the comments and questions:
Center Stack / Radios:
Good points: I definitely see the advantages to moving the panel mount gear to the center. Less chance of snapping off a knob stepping into the airplane; easy access from either seat; no conflict with the hinges or the sub-panel braces. I wish I had smaller radios, but I really like the SL-40 (great sound quality, simple RS-232 remote control protocol) and the PMA8000BTi (lots of inputs, stereo, Bluetooth).
Air Data Information:
I've built a basic air data computer (ADC). It provides airspeed, altitude, vertical speed, and outside air temperature. It ties to the FlightBox using a hardwired link (USB) with a wireless (Wifi) backup link. It can be installed in either a single or redundant configuration.
Transponder / ADS-B / Encoder:
I am reusing the Trig TT22 and the Dynon 2020 GPS receiver that are currently in the aircraft. The TT22 is a blind mount 1090-ES unit which covers both the transponder and ADS-B Out requirements. The primary FlightBox serves as the altitude encoder. It sends the pressure altitude from the air data computer to the Trig over an RS-232 link.
Additional Breakers:
I tried to design the system to be less breaker-hungry than the competitors. I really would like to use something intelligent like the VPx, but that's a pretty invasive installation, and I'm trying to hold to a budget and use things I already have. If I need additional capacity I may move the non-critical stuff (USB power, baggage area lighting, etc.) to an ATX fuse bus.
Rocker Switches:
Yeah, they're bigger than I would have liked. They look good, but they take up quite a bit of space and they may be a bit too easy to switch. I'll look into locking toggles.
Headset Jacks
The headset jacks are under the longerons so they're relatively out of the way. The center post already has the throttle, mixture, and elevator trim controls so it's pretty cluttered. I could put them facing down under the panel. I might save that for an upgrade to powered jacks (lemo) for upgraded headsets.
USB Power Jack
That might also get moved under the panel. It's mostly there for the passenger's convenience, as all iPads are powered via USB-C / Lightning power + Ethernet interfaces. (Like the ADC and EMS, the iPads have dual connections to the FlightBoxes - wired and wireless.) Those little white rectangular cuts you see in the panel allow connectors to feed through and power the iPads.
Here's a very quick and dirty update showing things moved around a bit:
I appreciate the input. Please let me know what else I might want to think about before I start cutting metal.
Thanks,
-S
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01-03-2019, 11:31 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: South Hamilton, MA
Posts: 521
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Ipad as PFD
As a frequent IPad user and a self confessed Apple fan-boy (mostly), I would be very concerned about those IPads locking up or rebooting during a critical portion of the approach, which in actual IFR is pretty much everything starting with the transition to the IAF.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tankerpilot75
Steve,
While I?m a big fan of using the iPad as an EFB, I?m not comfortable using them as primarily flight instruments. I have the iPad Pro with Retina display and it?s great for EFB purposes. However, it does ?wash out? in direct sun light (no matter how high my brightness was set). It was also prone to overheating when I placed it on a homemade panel bracket and allowed direct sun to hit it.
I?m sure bracketbuilt fans behind the mounted iPad providing cooler air will help with the over heating issue but direct sun will still wash out the display. I commend your efforts and the engineering involved but I just don?t trust iPads in higher temps and direct sunlight for primary flight instrumentation. As a backup device, okay - but not primary. If you?re going to create a panel test bed then please include at least some conventional primary flight instrumentation as a backup to the iPad approach. Its a safety concern.
Maybe your testing will prove me horribly wrong but I don?t think so.
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__________________
Antony
RV-7A
Empenage complete, wings complete, tip-up canopy complete, starting wiring ...
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01-03-2019, 11:46 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sunman, IN
Posts: 2,189
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Hmm...
Again, another data point...
Have been using the iPad Pro since they came out; we have 2 onboard for redundancy. I haven't experienced a "lockup" or "freeze" yet...on either iPad on the flight deck...
...and I see 3 in this panel...
__________________
Bob
Aerospace Engineer '88
RV-10
Structure - 90% Done
Cabin Top - Aaarrghhh...
EFII System 32 - Done
297 HP Barrett Hung
ShowPlanes Cowl with Skybolts Fitted - Beautiful
Wiring...
Dues+ Paid 2019,...Thanks DR+
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01-03-2019, 12:07 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Cupertino, California
Posts: 109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tankerpilot75
I?m sure bracketbuilt fans behind the mounted iPad providing cooler air will help with the over heating issue but direct sun will still wash out the display.
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I have a fan mounted behind each of the iPads on the prototype panel I built this past summer. The fans are thermally controlled and have so far done a good job of managing the heat issue. This updated design provides an even bigger gap and even better air flow, so I think I should be good for anything up to the 100?F mark, which is where the iPads internal thermal protection kicks in.
I haven't come up with a perfect solution for the washout issue, but I will say that the newest generation of iPad Pros is really quite bright. I've been testing with one in a Ram mount for the past month and the only time I have any problem is when the sun is dead behind me. Even then the screen is visible - it's just a bit painful to squint past the glare. I plan to test a bunch of different glare reducers once I get this put together.
As far as a backup instrument... If I was trying to build something for IFR, I would agree completely. For VFR I think what I've built is redundant enough to handle almost any situation. The system has two FlightBoxes, each with integrated AHRS and GPS receiver. The displays are built to switch between FlightBoxes in the event of a failure. The FlightBoxes each have their own ADC.
All that said... I might consider adding one of AeroVonics multifunction displays. All of my systems are running essentially the same code. Code diversity is a good thing.
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01-03-2019, 12:50 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 12,887
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I am not a fan of using iPads, even for FlightAware.
Besides having them reboot and hanging at odd times, the physically don't last very long. By the time they die, you will have to buy replacements off of eBay.
A cockpit is a harsh environment because of the temperature extremes.
I also like switches arranged by the phase of flight. For example, the fuel pump should be close to your throttle. Same goes for the flap switch. Mine is arranged so that I can toggle the flaps up or down without removing my hand from the throttle.
Too many people have placed their boost pump switch right next to their avionics master. It makes me wonder how many times they have shut their panels down in flight.
Good luck!
__________________
Bill R.
RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
O-360 w/ dual P-mags
Build the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build!
SC86 - Easley, SC
www.repucci.com/bill/baf.html
Last edited by N941WR : 01-03-2019 at 12:57 PM.
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01-03-2019, 01:17 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sunman, IN
Posts: 2,189
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I hope...
I hope you don?t get nervous flying the airlines...nearly every one of them use iPads for their IFR maps and charts...
__________________
Bob
Aerospace Engineer '88
RV-10
Structure - 90% Done
Cabin Top - Aaarrghhh...
EFII System 32 - Done
297 HP Barrett Hung
ShowPlanes Cowl with Skybolts Fitted - Beautiful
Wiring...
Dues+ Paid 2019,...Thanks DR+
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