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11-08-2018, 11:09 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Bellevue, NE
Posts: 524
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So, 2 different things being discussed...
1) a warning system to ensure the front and back pins are engaged is provided with the kit. It uses magnets in the pins and reed switches to detect them. If a door doesn?t have BOTH pins engaged, an LED will illuminate. Alternatively, or in addition to, you can drive discreet inputs on a G3x or other device.
2) mechanical door closure system: Vans designed their middle latch to ensure complete closure (there has been at least 1 aircraft with it installed that lost a door anyway. PlaneAround has a really nice center latch system that?s integrated with the stock closure mechanism. In addition to holding the door closed, it actually pulls the door shut when the stock handle is rotated into the closed position. With this system installed, it?s not possible to have the typical issue that allows a door to depart the aircraft (front pin engaged, aft pin outside the aircraft). The PlaneAround design is MUCH nicer than the Vans afterthought. Further, PlaneAround also makes longer pins that extend further into the frame than stock.
In summary, the PlaneAround center latch should be considered a must have for -10 builders. For those that don?t choose this path, door pin extension into door frames should be confirmed during construction. Further, preflight check should be done on front AND aft pins (both doors) to confirm closure. Regardless of latching system, the interior handles should also be checked to confirm fully latched.
__________________
Bob
RV-10 builder x2
RV-7A under construction
EAA Tech Counselor
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11-08-2018, 11:15 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
Posts: 10,011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike S
Why do you use a check list in the first place???
Is it not to make sure you have checked things, and assured that they are working correctly before you take an action------Start Engine list, Takeoff list, Landing list etc.
We could just forget the check lists, and wait for the engine to get quiet or other things to go wrong and activate a warning light
Besides, I just simply do not like using power continuously for the purpose of turning a light off.
Anyway, this is just what I did, you are free do do it however makes sense to you.
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My suggestion was much closer to the dome light system in your car.
Warning lights on the panel sort of over-ride check lists - that why we make them red...
No power is consumed when the doors are closed - that was for Vans system with relays.
__________________
Gil Alexander
EAA Technical Counselor, Airframe Mechanic
Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
RV-6A N61GX - finally flying
Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ
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11-08-2018, 11:39 AM
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Senior Curmudgeon
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dayton Airpark, NV A34
Posts: 15,420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az_gila
My suggestion was much closer to the dome light system in your car.
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Yep, yet another way to de-fur the feline.
__________________
Mike Starkey
VAF 909
Rv-10, N210LM.
Flying as of 12/4/2010
Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011 
Sold after 240+ wonderful hours of flight.
"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."
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11-08-2018, 01:04 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,035
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Correction.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcondrey
Vans designed their middle latch to ensure complete closure (there has been at least 1 aircraft with it installed that lost a door anyway.
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The middle latch was designed to be a passive back-up in case the door isn't correctly latched.
It doesn't ensure complete closure of the door.
As far as it not preventing at least one door loss.... The fact that these airplanes are in reality amateur built can be an explanation for an occasional failure. I am not meaning that it is a certainty, because the safety latch was not extensively flight tested, but it can't be discounted either since there have also been cases where the safety latch did save the door from being lost.
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.
Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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11-08-2018, 01:14 PM
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Senior Curmudgeon
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dayton Airpark, NV A34
Posts: 15,420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002
the system was specifically designed the way it is, to help mitigate a false safe indication caused by a variety of failure types within the system (broken wire, shorted wire, etc.)
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I have no idea if the system has be redesigned since I did mine.
As I remember this, (10 years or so since I installed the warning lights) the power for the light and relay is from the same source. Thus a broken wire here can cause a false safe indication. Also a broken wire from the relay to the LED will cause a false safe indication.
Consider this; I pull the plane out to go fly and do my walk around----all good so I get in and shut the doors. I flip on the master, and while waiting for the EFIS to boot up I start the check list. Right at the top is "Check Doors" I push the button, and get two green. At that time I know the doors are secure. If I do not get two green, I know there is a problem.
Now, same scenario with factory automatic red warning lights. I pull the plane out to go fly and do my walk around----all good so I get in and shut the doors. I flip on the master, and while waiting for the EFIS to boot up I start the check list. Right at the top is "Check Doors". I glance at the warning lights, and they are not on. All I really know at the moment is the lights are not on------but I have no idea if the system is actually working as designed or if there is a broken wire or a failed light.
I suppose it would be possible to put in both a green light for latched and a red for not latched, and drive the green from the N.O. contact of the relay. Might be a better system------after all, lots of things in the plane have booth red and green indications, oil temp and pressure gauges comes to mind.
As I said previously;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike S
Anyway, this is just what I did, you are free do do it however makes sense to you.
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__________________
Mike Starkey
VAF 909
Rv-10, N210LM.
Flying as of 12/4/2010
Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011 
Sold after 240+ wonderful hours of flight.
"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."
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11-08-2018, 02:28 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dogwood Airpark (VA42)
Posts: 2,597
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This is a lot of discussion on what has been previously hashed out. The RV-10 doors are problematic, steps must be taken to mitigate this risk but a proven path has already been identified. I?ll summarize:
- Plane around center cam. This is simply a must do. The Van?s after thought SB safety door latch is marginal at best, and just not acceptable on these $200K airplanes.
- Each door pin has a magnet that closes it?s own micro switch. The switches are wired in series so that only all four pins properly in place will yield the doors shut indication. For the vast majority of builders this signal is used to activate an EFIS input (so no extra relays or LEDs required or desired). On the SkyView I have a red indication on the EMS display, once all the doors pins are in it goes to green. Just about as simple as it gets.
Carl
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11-08-2018, 02:36 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Prosper, TX
Posts: 373
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Door Warning
I used the PlaneAround latch and can't rotate the handle unless both pins are engaged and the cam is in place on the block. For a backup, the rear pins contact a mechanical microswitch wired to the G3X so that there's a CAS on the EFIS which also illuminates the Master Warning light on the panel. This same Master Warning light is used to alert for low oil pressure, below min fuel and other can't-be-missed info. Just another way to solve for the same problem.
__________________
RV-10 N415JS
Slow build kit #40874
Homebuilt Kit Champion Oshkosh 2019
Atlantic crossings: 2
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11-08-2018, 02:57 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Mesa Arizona
Posts: 608
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In my humble opinion Van?s should adopt the plarne around system and the Andair fuel valve as standard kit issue just like they did with the Vetterman exhaust.
I love Van?s company and my RV10, but was sorely disappointed with the ugly door latch ?fix?, especially with how elegant, simple, and effective the plane around system is for not much more installation effort. I like cheap as much as the next guy, but we?re talking about a serious concern (door pops) on 200k+ machines. Do it right. Lights plus latches.
__________________
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
RV-10 N24EV
KITPLANES Contributing Editor
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11-08-2018, 03:24 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike S
I have no idea if the system has be redesigned since I did mine.
As I remember this, (10 years or so since I installed the warning lights) the power for the light and relay is from the same source. Thus a broken wire here can cause a false safe indication. Also a broken wire from the relay to the LED will cause a false safe indication.
Consider this; I pull the plane out to go fly and do my walk around----all good so I get in and shut the doors. I flip on the master, and while waiting for the EFIS to boot up I start the check list. Right at the top is "Check Doors" I push the button, and get two green. At that time I know the doors are secure. If I do not get two green, I know there is a problem.
Now, same scenario with factory automatic red warning lights. I pull the plane out to go fly and do my walk around----all good so I get in and shut the doors. I flip on the master, and while waiting for the EFIS to boot up I start the check list. Right at the top is "Check Doors". I glance at the warning lights, and they are not on. All I really know at the moment is the lights are not on------but I have no idea if the system is actually working as designed or if there is a broken wire or a failed light.
I suppose it would be possible to put in both a green light for latched and a red for not latched, and drive the green from the N.O. contact of the relay. Might be a better system------after all, lots of things in the plane have booth red and green indications, oil temp and pressure gauges comes to mind.
As I said previously;
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Mike,
I didn't say the design mitigated all possible failure modes, and I didn't mean that it is the only way it should be done.
They are experimental airplanes after all... do what every you think is right for you depending on what type of indication system you have to connect it to..
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.
Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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11-08-2018, 03:38 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Mesa Arizona
Posts: 608
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I don?t remember the technical details, but my door lights through my SkyView system are continuous green for closed and red for open.
__________________
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
RV-10 N24EV
KITPLANES Contributing Editor
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