General question about Lycoming ADs and Experimentals

fly5465 · #1 03-27-2007, 08:19 PM

I have recently started to look for a "flying" RV6A to buy.

I have what may be a dumb question, but I'm not sure of the answer so I'll ask.

Concerning Experimentals with typical Lycoming engines, do they still have to comply with the same engine AD's that a production aircraft with the same engine does? For example, oil pump AD's ect....

Thanks
Dale

godspeed · #2 03-27-2007, 08:43 PM

As far as I know, the answer is no , but wouldn't recommend it..

Danny..

fly5465 · #3 03-27-2007, 10:15 PM

Thanks Danny,

I would not recommend it either. Just trying to get myself informed.

Thanks.
Dale

az_gila · #4 03-27-2007, 11:01 PM

There is a nice discussion by the EAA on this subject here....
Well worth the read....

http://members.eaa.org/home/govt/issues/airworthy.asp?

You do have to be an EAA member to get to the article, but if you are not a member yet, it would be a good time to join...

gil in Tucson

Jekyll · #5 03-27-2007, 11:37 PM

Only type certified equipment require compliance with ADs (SBs and Parts bulletins are similar). Once AD periods have been exceeded, type certified equipment in effect, become uncertified until the mandatory procedure is completed and signed off by a "certified" mechanic which returns the equipment's certification.

Further, type certified equipment must meet a "plethora" of criteria to become and remain certified: they must have initial type certificates, the manufacturer must have a production license, all parts must be OEM certified or have an FAA PMA if from a third party, all maintenance must be by FAA certified mechanics (except for those pilot maintenance items specified in the regs), the equipment must be operated within the approved operating limitations and all ADs and mandatory SBs (mandatory SBs don't apply to part 91 operations) must be comlied with within the specified compliance guidelines. Certification is lost if ANY of the affore mentioned requirements are broached and can only be returned by correcting the breach. All certified parts immediately loose their certification if used on non-certified equipment such as installing a certified engine on an RV, an air boat or a farm tractor.

Thus, ADs must be performed to maintain a piece of aeronautical equipment in "certified" condition. However, RVs are not certified so the ADs are not required. As previously mentioned, consider that ADs are issued to correct known deficiencies and then make your own decision as to their relevance and value .

The "official" answer may not be all there is to this because your insurance agent may have some say in whether or not you incorporate ADs. When does he or she get involved? When you submit a claim. If you "recklessly operate" with a "known" deficiency, they may not pay a resulting claim. Also consider that you might have trouble finding a buyer should you try to sell your RV with say, a crank that was listed on an SB or AD for replacement which you legally decided to ignor.

We must evaluate each AD and SB carefully to determin applicability to our aircraft. I quarantee that each occurance will be fully discussed on this and similar sites so, stay tuned here to get insight regarding applicability to your hot rod.

Good question.

Jekyll
Not an FAA rep but I did take a 5-day FAA certification course at the U of Kansas. I have done significant work with the DoD on FAA certification issues with military applications of certified aircraft and engines.

Mel · #6 03-28-2007, 07:53 AM

Dale,
This is an age old question. Here's the problem. It's not whether or not it is required, but whether or not you can get an annual condition inspection signed off without it. Since you will not be able to sign off the condition inspection yourself, you must employ an A&P. Personally I would not sign off a piece of equipment as "in a condition for safe operation" knowing that an AD had not been complied with. Your example of the Lycoming oil pump is a good one. Even though the engine may no longer be certified, that Lycoming oil pump doesn't know it's in a non-certified engine, and therefore just as subject to failure as if it were. Just my $.02 worth.

JonathanCook · #7 03-28-2007, 09:51 PM

An other consideration about an experimental engine is that since it does not need to be documented like a certified engine you could have parts that are AD'd and without documentation you could miss the AD. I know that everyone that reads these forum would never do that, but you are talking about purchasing an experimental.

ddurakovich · #8 03-29-2007, 09:13 AM

FWIW,

I talked to the DAR that will do my inspection shortly, and he indicated that the AD compliance would be part of the inspection. I think it's a good idea in any case.

gmcjetpilot · #9 03-29-2007, 06:37 PM

You can divide your future RV into two parts, the experimental airframe and the certified engine / prop.

Good engine log books and compliance with AD's, SB's and SL's are an indication of the condition of the engine and the builder/owners thoroughness. Its you life. If you have never bought or owned a plane LOG BOOKS ARE GOLD. You really should have a good person scrutinize them.

Experimental Lycs that are not stock and up to current airworthiness directives and manufactured mandatory SB's should not have a DATA Tag.

As far as A&P's not signing it off? Well you can find one that will sign it off. A condition inspection is not an annual. They are not signing off more than a "Condition Inspection". That means just that an inspection, not an airworthiness compliance. Clearly its up to an A&P to not work on any plane they see fit. Note: Only an AI can sign off an annual on a certified plane. Any A&P out of the local VO-TECH college can do an Cond Insp on an experimental.

The A&P can add any caveat or disclaimer he likes to cover his back side like:

"The engine does not meet AD/SB X, Y and Z and I recommend it be addressed before next flight. Owner declines and these items, but they are not required for a condition inspection on an experimental airplane per FAR xxx.xx."

That lets him off the hook. By the way you can change the pump I recall with out splitting the case or pulling the jugs.

My point is you can get a condition inspection if say the oil pump AD has not been addressed, but as Mel said, you may get a few who decline to sign the inspection off. Personally my policy is to maintain my engine like a Cert engine. I also keep the data plate, O-360-A1A.

Mel · #10 03-29-2007, 06:50 PM

Even though the A&P does not sign the airplane off as "airworthy", he does sign it off as being "in a condition for safe operation". This wording can still come back to bite him. Can he in good conscience state that the aircraft is in a condition for safe operation if it has an outstanding AD? Like you say, it's up to him.
The reason that the word "airworthy" is not used in the experimental world is that the word "airworthy" has recently been defined in the FAR as "meeting it's type certificate". Since experimentals do not have a type certificate, the aircraft can't meet one.