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  #21  
Old 09-09-2018, 01:40 PM
alpinelakespilot2000 alpinelakespilot2000 is offline
 
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Just a different way to answer the original question (in the form of a rhetorical question):

Don't you think that if it was consistent with the regs to rent out RVs in the EAB category that someone would have done it by now?
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  #22  
Old 09-09-2018, 02:07 PM
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Ironflight Ironflight is offline
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The neat thing here is that none of has to guess - although we may very much not like what we find. Google “FAA legal interpretations, and you’ll find a search page where you type in terms to search for. Type “compensation” and hit the search button - I got about 163 recent legal interpretations from the FAA first one I clicked on is this:

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretation.pdf

As it states, the FAA interprets the term “compensation”very broadly, and the logging of flight time is compensation if you don’t have to pay the operating costs for the aircraft - and my guess is that operating costs will be more than just gas and oil. So you better pay your share of all costs associated with borrowing the aircraft, or the mere fact of flying it as PIC might mean that you need a commercial certificate!

Nuts.....right? That’s a rabbit hole I sure don’t don’t want to go down - but it is, as Mel says, not the right of FSDO employees to interpret the rules; that belongs to the HQ legal team.

Tread carefully.....
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  #23  
Old 09-09-2018, 02:49 PM
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erich weaver erich weaver is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post
So you better pay your share of all costs associated with borrowing the aircraft, or the mere fact of flying it as PIC might mean that you need a commercial
Hmmm. Thought I was following along until this. So you are saying everything is fine with lending your plane to your friend as long as he pays his share of all costs?

Erich
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  #24  
Old 09-09-2018, 03:41 PM
Dustyone Dustyone is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Brisbane,Austalia
Posts: 188
Default How do we change the FAA/CASA etc regs ?

Hi Paul,

So how do we change the REGS ?

I am new to aviation, I have only being flying for six years. I missed the 'Glory"days when Piper and Cessna would bring their new models to the Aero-clubs to buy.

I started my training in a Piper 140 that was 40 years old,stopped wasting money on that flying school and built an RV-10 and finished all of my training in my own aircraft. Completed my PIFR and use the aircraft in my own business. (Dynon / GTN750 )

My local Aeroclub proudly had its open day this weekend and had their fleet on display. The average age of the fleet is about 25years old. The usual suspects C172 C182 C310 C210 Piper Warriers etc. This is a very successful club here in Australia with lots of students doing their CPL. The most modern aircraft is a C182 with a G1000.

The newest aircraft at my home field are Slings (Dynon ), Tecnam (Dynon )
RV-10 ( Dynon ) and RV-14 (G3X ) all less than 4years old.

New C182 / Cirrus etc here in Australia easily pass the $900K - $1 Million AUD when an similar equiped RV-10 can be built for approx $400KAUD

There is an ever increasing number of late model IFR equipped Experimentals and a rapidly shrinking Certified market to choose from to hire.

CASA's own data shows that in 2016 48 % of all new single engine registered aircraft were Experimental and the trend is only increasing.

The EAA is doing an amazing job trying to bring the old fleet some new life with stc's for new panels and AoA's but the wheel turns very slowly.

I honestly don't know how to change the giant industry which is FAA /CASA and the like but in my lifetime so many other industries have changed quickly to adapt to what the consumer wants all in the space of a very short time (Uber AirBnB etc)

I get asked weekly "How do I hire a modern plane like this " (IFR 160+knt aircraft) and the reality is that there very few available or affordable options even available to the consumer.

The Brazilians seemed to have figured out a way to modernise their county's fleet,
https://www.flyer-aero.com/blank-jpqip
300+ RV-10's !!!!!

So HOW do we do the same ??

Let the revolution begin .....
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  #25  
Old 09-09-2018, 05:25 PM
markserbu markserbu is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post
The neat thing here is that none of has to guess - although we may very much not like what we find. Google ?FAA legal interpretations, and you?ll find a search page where you type in terms to search for. Type ?compensation? and hit the search button - I got about 163 recent legal interpretations from the FAA first one I clicked on is this:

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretation.pdf

As it states, the FAA interprets the term ?compensation?very broadly, and the logging of flight time is compensation if you don?t have to pay the operating costs for the aircraft - and my guess is that operating costs will be more than just gas and oil. So you better pay your share of all costs associated with borrowing the aircraft, or the mere fact of flying it as PIC might mean that you need a commercial certificate!

Nuts.....right? That?s a rabbit hole I sure don?t don?t want to go down - but it is, as Mel says, not the right of FSDO employees to interpret the rules; that belongs to the HQ legal team.

Tread carefully.....
QUITE a rabbit hole! I was a non-equity partner on a plane years ago and my "ownership" of part of the plane was what got us around all this, I believe. In the same way that some stores (like Costco) or Utah bars have memberships, someone should come up with an agreement that gives at least temporary ownership of an aircraft (or the entity that owns it) when it's being used. I'm sure the right lawyer and the right legalese exists to get around this issue.
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  #26  
Old 09-09-2018, 06:33 PM
rv7charlie rv7charlie is offline
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pocahontas MS
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It certainly seems that there would be a large (legal) difference between me asking another pilot to, for instance, reposition my plane to another airport, with him using the repositioning flight to build time for a rating (my 'compensation' to him for the flight), and that same pilot *borrowing* my plane, with no benefit to me (therefore, nothing to 'compensate' for).

By the same logic, the owner of a spam can couldn't loan his plane to another pilot unless it had had a 100 hour inspection within the past 100 flight hours (to meet the rules for rental).
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  #27  
Old 09-09-2018, 07:08 PM
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Vlad Vlad is offline
 
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Location: Utah
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Just get the real friends guys. Won't be any need for these types of questions. Toss them the keys let them enjoy as you do
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  #28  
Old 09-09-2018, 07:25 PM
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mchargmg mchargmg is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Palmer Lake, CO
Posts: 226
Default A flying club is also a possibility

It is pretty clear that a flying club can charge dues that are used towards the upkeep, maintenance, hangar fees etc for the plane. Both EAA and AOPA have pretty strong programs to help setting up a club.

The owner would have to think about if he wanted to do this or not. Not clear there is much in it for him or her, except a way to get the plane a few more hours while bringing in some money for the upkeep of the plane.

As Vlad said, probably the easiest if he or she gives you the keys, and you make sure you have insurance.

cheers

Geoff
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