P-mag charges for upgrade from V37 to V41

[Toobuilder]

Originally Posted by N941WR

I get it, a surprise charge is never a good thing but the price seems very reasonable.

The other thing is that the failure mode for pre-version 40 isn't very good. So $108 seems like cheap insurance...

Certainly you can appreciate the other side of this though:

Customer purchases a ignition which bases much of its marketing on "reliability", said ignition manufacturer comes back later and says "just kidding"...NOW we have it right. Please pay $$$ to get the ignition you thought you bought the first time.

Its one thing if they come out with some useful new features - that should be an upcharge - but a "fix"?

I've been a Pmag customer for 12+ years and I've ridden the waves of firmware updates and SB's that whole time. There comes a point where I just want an ignition to work without wondering when the new bug will be uncovered. This is not an Iphone, its an ignition.

[gasman]

Originally Posted by MarkW

Just sent mine in this week. Paid UPS $38 dollars for shipping. I didn't ask the price to IRAN and update firmware but assumed there was a charge plus return shipping.
I have had many techy items that received a firmware upgrades during my ownership. Never considered them to have engineering errors.
My home thermostat has had five upgrades in the past four months.

Yes, And what did those upgrades cost you? And what would be the damage if it failed.

[Bevan]

Originally Posted by gasman

Yes, And what did those upgrades cost you? And what would be the damage if it failed.

Damage if it failed is irrelevant. This is made for "experimental" aviation, use at your own risk. One must understand the risks and know how to mitigate them.

I for one am thankful that the manufacturer remains, is responsive to their customers, provides a great service (both on the phone and in-house), fast turn-around times, loaners, upgrades, updates, R&D etc. For a small fee, you too can have the latest version. Will it be the final version? Not likely. But I challenge you to do better. Otherwise, be thankful. I believe it's a great product (not perfect but neither are magnetos!). At the same time, it may not be for everyone. Seldom any product is right for everyone.

These units have saved me more than enough in fuel costs (not to mention other performance benefits) to cover for the update costs. I run two and know what to do if one seems to misbehave. No big deal.

In the certified world, the design would be set in concrete and unlikely ever changed until forced to by a regulation, possibly paid for in blood.

Be happy.

Bevan

[Bevan]

Originally Posted by Toobuilder

This is not an Iphone, its an ignition.

You never heard of anyone who experienced an unexpected magneto failure? We live in fantastic times and in one of the best places in the world to live. Consider the lives of all those who have ever walked the face of the earth, and be happy. I believe the folks at Emagair are doing their level best to make the amateur aviation world a better place. Cut them some slack, lest they (and others like them) disappear altogether.

Bevan

[Toobuilder]

Originally Posted by Bevan

You never heard of anyone who experienced an unexpected magneto failure? We live in fantastic times and in one of the best places in the world to live. Consider the lives of all those who have ever walked the face of the earth, and be happy. I believe the folks at Emagair are doing their level best to make the amateur aviation world a better place. Cut them some slack, lest they (and others like them) disappear altogether...

Thats pretty deep (philosophically) for a discussion about a technical issue. That said, the fact that Brad and co are "great guys", and "trying really hard" does not shield them from pointing out the fact that it has taken many years of manufacturing and many firmware updates to get the ignition to behave as originally marketed. I was an early adopter and I knew I was responsible for my own actions, but I dont ever remember that part in fine print that said:

"May not work as advertised. Existing flaws in basic functionality will be corrected with future firmware updates"..

And yes, I hope they remain viable in this market, but lets keep in mind that there are other players who have figured out how to keep the sparks going the right direction -every time- for decades. Considering the heartless nature of a free market, and in light of their countless broken promises, I think Pmag has enjoyed a tremendous amount of "slack".

"Viability" needs to come from delivering a product that conforms to the technical specifications - not the charity of a loyal customer base.

[bruceh]

I hate to break it to you but ALL SOFTWARE PROGRAMS HAVE BUGS. There is no such thing as bug free software. The fact that a magneto has no software/firmware, but instead is a strictly mechanical device also does not mean that it has no flaws. Every product that has some sort of programming involved will evolve over time, and that is good thing. Version 1 may have a problem fixed by version 2, and version 2 may introduce new as yet unseen bugs. In most complex software/hardware systems it just isn't practical to explore and test every possible permutation of conditions that the software may encounter, so guess what - the customer gets to do this job. I think most people just don't have an appreciation for just how complicated something like a smart-phone App or OS really is, or your EFIS, or your P-mag. Personally, I would rather have the benefits of the technology and with that understand some of the limitations that it will never be perfect. A very well known OS used by many Fortune-500 companies, that I worked on had over 10,000 known bugs in the most recent release. 99% of these will never be fixed, and their existence will probably never be noticed by the majority of customers. Getting features to market is more important than unachievable perfection and the costs involved for development.

Just food for thought from a software veteran who has been heavily involved in software quality, security and testing over the last 30 years.

The fact that P-mag is still improving their product is a good thing, versus going out of business and having no support for the product long term. I will be sending mine in for the update at my next annual inspection and am glad to pay for continued support.

[Bevan]

Originally Posted by bruceh

I hate to break it to you but ALL SOFTWARE PROGRAMS HAVE BUGS. There is no such thing as bug free software. The fact that a magneto has no software/firmware, but instead is a strictly mechanical device also does not mean that it has no flaws. Every product that has some sort of programming involved will evolve over time, and that is good thing. Version 1 may have a problem fixed by version 2, and version 2 may introduce new as yet unseen bugs. In most complex software/hardware systems it just isn't practical to explore and test every possible permutation of conditions that the software may encounter, so guess what - the customer gets to do this job. I think most people just don't have an appreciation for just how complicated something like a smart-phone App or OS really is, or your EFIS, or your P-mag. Personally, I would rather have the benefits of the technology and with that understand some of the limitations that it will never be perfect. A very well known OS used by many Fortune-500 companies, that I worked on had over 10,000 known bugs in the most recent release. 99% of these will never be fixed, and their existence will probably never be noticed by the majority of customers. Getting features to market is more important than unachievable perfection and the costs involved for development.

Just food for thought from a software veteran who has been heavily involved in software quality, security and testing over the last 30 years.

The fact that P-mag is still improving their product is a good thing, versus going out of business and having no support for the product long term. I will be sending mine in for the update at my next annual inspection and am glad to pay for continued support.

I agree 100% and having 2 identical and independent P-mags drives the risk of having a bad day way down provided I understand how to operate and manage them. Cost of occasional updates/inspections is not significantly different than other routine maintenance costs.

Bevan.

[rv8ch]

Originally Posted by Toobuilder

... but I dont ever remember that part in fine print that said:

"May not work as advertised. Existing flaws in basic functionality will be corrected with future firmware updates"..

...

Mike, you've been around the block a time or two, and you know that this fine print is implicitly stamped on every product you buy. The nice part about many of the products we buy today is that it has this part - they might fix it. Peace!

[Whitman]

Fellas, can’t the guy just vent a little bit? His plane was down for mx, and now he has to read replies from you guys! It’s ok to post his experience and is by no means an attack on the company. Some people here act like they are relatives of the PMAG owners!

[RVTOY]

I?m original poster: Emag emailed me with error for charging for service work but was only in for software upgrade. They stated no charge for upgrade! Yes, on shipping charge which we all know is standard practice everywhere.
I did not make the post for bashing anybody. The fact is that they respond to every question I?ve sent thru email and called if they though I may need more help working thru my problem.
George