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  #1  
Old 08-31-2017, 01:40 PM
Ed_Wischmeyer's Avatar
Ed_Wischmeyer Ed_Wischmeyer is offline
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Savannah, GA
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Default ADS-B Rebate Flight Success (I think)

When I bought my RV-9A, it had a primitive UAT out transmitter, the kind that, if I recall correctly, had a non-approved GPS position source, the aircraft N# code (in hexadecimal) and transponder code had to be set before each flight with a cell phone app, and no barometric altimetry. I flew with that a while, but it got 86ed when I did the big panel rework.

So along comes the rebate program, and the first step of the web application was rejected because my plane was previously ADS-B equipped. I wrote to adsbrebatehelp.gov and explained the situation. They saw no evidence of any earlier flights with ADS-B so we’re good to go.

Then that evening, they wanted make and model of the removed equipment. No problem, as fortunately, I found a photo of the data plate of the removed unit with the serial number written in magic marker. That was satisfactory, we’re good to go.

I also asked what I needed to do on the acceptance flight, and they referred me to a web page that said what airspace I needed to fly in, and for at least 30 minutes, but nothing more specific. That web page referenced AC 20-165B, which calls for an hour long flight, but not as restrictive in the airspace. I called AOPA, and they said two 360s each direction, plus flying over a fixed point N/S and E/W. OK, can do, we’re good to go.

Then adsbrebatehelp wanted a copy of the bill of sale and a copy of the 337 documenting installation. Ain’t no such thing as a 337 for experimentals, and I had bought the Garmin GTX330 from a private party, so there was no bill of sale. However, I had emails documenting the sale and had the paperwork from Garmin documenting the upgrade to 330ES. That paperwork didn’t have my name on it, of course, but I also sent them a picture of the dataplate from the 330ES. And in response to a later email, I sent them a copy of the work order from the avionics shop that did the installation. So we’re good to go.

There were three abortive attempts (weather, mostly) to do the rebate flight in Class C airspace, which is, conveniently enough, my home airport. This morning, I filed IFR, just in case, as there was a forecast of scattered clouds at 2,000 feet. Driving out to the airport, the sky was clear. As we taxied out, though, a cloud mysteriously appeared at two o’clock. Then another at eight o’clock. Then the two o’clock cloud had a partner, all appearing as quickly as you can read this. We talked to clearance about whether it would be easier for them for us to go VFR, and that’s what we did.

After takeoff, we were vectored for the ILS 10, but despite multiple earlier phone calls, the controller didn’t know what we wanted, most specifically, that we *had*to* stay inside Class C airspace. We did two 360s to the right to check that off, and used those turns as opportunities to play with autopilot gains for final tuning. Then we did one more 360 for spacing and were cleared for the ILS 10 approach.

Well, mostly cleared for the approach. On short final, but still a thousand feet up because we weren’t landing, tower told us to go around because of two F-18s waiting to take off. We were 30 seconds from the runway intersection, which we wanted to fly over, but, oh, well. We then got vectored for the ILS 1 approach, and approach asked us when we wanted to do our *four* 360s to the left. We did our *two* left 360s to get those checked off. Then, as we were about to start the ILS 1 approach, they changed runways to 19 and 28.

Okay, we can do the LPV to 28, but don’t call it an LPV approach because controllers don’t know what an LPV approach is. Call it an RNAV or a GPS approach, please. Approach control wanted us to go to an initial approach fix and asked us if that fix was inside Class C airspace. Really? C’mon now. Vectors to final went well enough, but by now we were playing dodge ‘em with the clouds. After that approach, we went back to IFR and did the LPV 19 approach over the runway intersection, then circled back and landed on 19.

After we put the plane away, I got out the cell phone to request the data from the flight, and found that adsbrebatehelp wanted a copy of the bill of sale and the 337. Again. Somehow, I must have gotten into their system twice. A half hour later, waiting for my buddy at the restaurant, I successfully (apparently) filed for the rebate.

Lessons learned, or maybe they were learned:
* The word on what we needed didn’t get to they controllers, but they were very accommodating. Then again, some of them know this airplane and I think I have a history of being helpful and cooperative when it makes a difference to them;
* We were extremely busy flying the airplane with two well-qualified pilots. It gets busy, what with doing the 360s and making sure we stayed inside Class C airspace and such. Moving maps are great for hazard avoidance, such as traffic, terrain, weather, and in this case, airspace boundaries;
* After looking at the FAA’s flight report documenting the performance of the ADS-B system, it’s not clear to me that we had to do any of the maneuvers we did. I strongly suspect, but do not know, that 30+ minutes of just plain old flying around in Class C airspace would have sufficed.

And now, the check is in the mail. The email came ten hours after the flight. :-)
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RV-9A at KSAV (Savannah, GA; dual G3X Touch with autopilot, GTN650, GTX330ES, GDL52 ADSB-In)
Previously RV-4, RV-8, RV-8A, AirCam, Cessna 175
ATP CFII PhD, so I have no excuses when I screw up
Vaccines kept me out of the hospital but COVID still cost me a month of living, all told...

Last edited by Ed_Wischmeyer : 08-31-2017 at 06:24 PM.
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  #2  
Old 08-31-2017, 03:09 PM
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az_gila az_gila is offline
 
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Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_Wischmeyer View Post
...

Lessons learned, or maybe they were learned:
* The word on what we needed didn’t get to they controllers, but they were very accommodating. Then again, some of them know this airplane and I think I have a history of being helpful and cooperative when it makes a difference to them;
* We were extremely busy flying the airplane with two well-qualified pilots. It gets busy, what with doing the 360s and making sure we stayed inside Class C airspace and such. Moving maps are great for hazard avoidance, such as traffic, terrain, weather, and in this case, airspace boundaries;
* After looking at the FAA’s flight report documenting the performance of the ADS-B system, it’s not clear to me that we had to do any of the maneuvers we did. I strongly suspect, but do not know, that 30+ minutes of just plain old flying around in Class C airspace would have sufficed.

And now, the check is in the mail. I hope. The last web page accessed indicated success, but there is no confirming email.

I found the same thing getting the rebate for my Tiger. The Tucson ATC didn't know why I wanted "to maneuver" in their Class C airspace.

They gave me a code and I circled a bit in both directions at the edge of their airspace and climbed up to 8,500 over the top of the Class C.

They could then ignore me, but knew where I was. After a bit - getting bored of circles - I realized that the requirement is to be in "Rule Airspace" and climbing a bit more to 10,500 would do, so I finished the rest of the 30 minutes heading NE squawking 1200.

I sent the flight details in as soon as I got home and within 1 hour I had ADSB 'good' confirmation and a verification email saying the "check is on the way".

The actual requirement for the 30 minute flight location is here -

Where to Fly: To receive the rebate, eligible Aircraft must be flown in rule airspace, which is the airspace defined in 14 CFR §91.225 for at least 30 minutes, with at least 10 aggregate minutes of maneuvering flight (Part 23 flight maneuvers as described in AC 20-165B sections 4.3.2.3-4.3.2.6). Exception: In Alaska, Guam, Hawaii and Puerto Rico, flight of an Eligible Aircraft above 10,000 feet MSL and within FAA ADS-B coverage will qualify as meeting the airspace requirements for the Rebate program.



It's not just Class C or Class B airspace. I took off from Ryan (RYN) where I had the transponder VFR checked to the W of Tucson and never did a landing at TUS. My ADSB reported flight time was 42 minutes, but RYN is so close to the Class edge that I'm must have had 30 minutes in the rule airspace

Admittingly with a new GTX335 transponder installation it was much easier, but I found the overall process easy-peasy...
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La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ

Last edited by az_gila : 09-01-2017 at 01:20 AM.
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  #3  
Old 08-31-2017, 04:38 PM
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Sam Buchanan Sam Buchanan is offline
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I flew outside of HSV Class C squawking 1200 for 40 minutes just doodling below 3000' for the $500 rebate validation flight:



Didn't talk to anyone, didn't fly the "required" maneuvers, and got a perfect performance report and the $500 check. ADS-B out is handled by a Stratus ESG transponder with dedicated WAAS GPS. ADS-B in is via a Stratux receiver porting to an iFly 720.
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Last edited by Sam Buchanan : 08-31-2017 at 04:58 PM.
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  #4  
Old 08-31-2017, 04:47 PM
mbuehler mbuehler is offline
 
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I thought experimental airplanes didn't qualify for the rebate? Or do I have that wrong. I just put the EchoUAT in my RV4. A $500 rebate would make that a $499 ADSB solution!
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  #5  
Old 08-31-2017, 04:54 PM
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Sam Buchanan Sam Buchanan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbuehler View Post
I thought experimental airplanes didn't qualify for the rebate? Or do I have that wrong. I just put the EchoUAT in my RV4. A $500 rebate would make that a $499 ADSB solution!
Experimental aircraft qualify for the rebate if equipment on the "approved for rebate list" is installed. Installation by the owner is also qualified.
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  #6  
Old 08-31-2017, 04:56 PM
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GatorJim GatorJim is offline
 
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Not sure about the requirement for all the maneuvering. I completed the ADS-B installation and flew two circuits of a large rectangle (6 minute legs) under the Class B veil in Orlando (32 minutes total flight time). That's all it took to receive an acceptable report on the ADS-B installation.
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  #7  
Old 08-31-2017, 04:58 PM
Ed_Wischmeyer's Avatar
Ed_Wischmeyer Ed_Wischmeyer is offline
 
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Location: Savannah, GA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbuehler View Post
I thought experimental airplanes didn't qualify for the rebate? Or do I have that wrong. I just put the EchoUAT in my RV4. A $500 rebate would make that a $499 ADSB solution!
The ADS-B out has to be TSO'd for a rebate. All ADS-B units have to comply with the TSO performance specifications, but to qualify for the rebate, the unit has to be fully TSO'd. I talked to uAvionix and they said that complete TSO compliance would have taken a few year$.
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RV-9A at KSAV (Savannah, GA; dual G3X Touch with autopilot, GTN650, GTX330ES, GDL52 ADSB-In)
Previously RV-4, RV-8, RV-8A, AirCam, Cessna 175
ATP CFII PhD, so I have no excuses when I screw up
Vaccines kept me out of the hospital but COVID still cost me a month of living, all told...

Last edited by Ed_Wischmeyer : 08-31-2017 at 09:09 PM.
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  #8  
Old 08-31-2017, 10:47 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
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Default Off-topic

Ed,
At the top of the approach plate it says 'RNAV(GPS)', that's what the controllers want to hear. I've had controllers complain when I told them I was doing the "Localizer 28" approach, when technically I was doing the "ILS 28 approach to localizer minimums". Technically they cannot clear you for the LPV approach, because of the requirement that your gps calculate that the satellite geometries are good enough, and the box okays the approach. On rare occasions the gps may only authorize LNAV minimums. And the controllers don't know what your box will authorize.
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  #9  
Old 09-01-2017, 07:37 AM
N733JJ N733JJ is offline
 
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Location: Wappingers Falls, NY
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Default Easy for me

I had a much different experience. Though my initial application "ran out" because I did not finish the install in the required time period, my application was deactivated with a simple e-mail.

I flew a trip of a little over 100nm, at no time was I in "required airspace" and since I flew direct to my destination, virtually no maneuvering was done. After the flight I requested a performance review and within hours receive the package with a note that this flight would serve as my qualification flight, no further flight would be necessary. The check arrived within a week and has cleared. 😁

Scott A Jordan
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  #10  
Old 09-01-2017, 07:54 AM
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GalinHdz GalinHdz is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorJim View Post
Not sure about the requirement for all the maneuvering. I completed the ADS-B installation and flew two circuits of a large rectangle (6 minute legs) under the Class B veil in Orlando (32 minutes total flight time). That's all it took to receive an acceptable report on the ADS-B installation.
Very similar to what a friend of mine did to get his rebate.



His plan was to:
Depart KSFB and headed to first point (MAMBO) while climbing to 4,500ft.
Do a left 360 at the first point (MAMBO)
Head to second point (JENSN) while doing a slow climb to 6,500ft.
Do a right 360 at the second point (JENSN)
Head to third point (CERMO) while descending to 3,500ft.
After third point (CERMO) turn back to MAMBO at 3,500ft.
After MAMBO, headed to KFIN for lunch.

But since ATC "Flight Follow" was very busy they asked him to stay below 3,000ft which he did. The entire flight was under the Orlando Class "B" airspace but within the Mode "C" veil. Got the FAA rebate confirmation e-mail within 1hr after landing.

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Last edited by GalinHdz : 09-01-2017 at 08:42 AM.
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