Minimal Compliance with 91.205 for IFR

[jrs14855]

Wise old man, 87 years old, two young girl friends, net worth 375mil, would that be the one????
Seriously an option not mentioned is to do as much as you can practicing in your airplane, with a safety pilot. It does not need to be completely IFR equipped or legal for practice as long as you don't file IFR. When you get good enough at that find a simulator, preferably with at least a Garmin 430 and log some time in that.

[BobTurner]

Originally Posted by snopercod

But let's consider personal responsibility for a moment.

I think the FAA has made it very clear: they don't trust private pilots any further than they can spit. Unfortunately there has been at least one airliner brought down by a wayward GA pilot, (and I personally know of an Air Force tanker that suffered the same fate) and the FAA is doing everything in its power to see that that never happens again. If that means less freedom for GA, that's what they will do. Why do you think ADSB-out is being made mandatory only (for the most part) in the airspace where airliners fly? Personal responsibility? As the famous cartoon character said, "We have met the enemy, and he is us".

[RV7A Flyer]

Originally Posted by BobTurner

+1
But it goes a bit further. The $$$ is so large (I have heard several million) that the GA market may just not be large enough to support more than one manufacturer. OR, once one manufacturer has established dominance in the market, he can easily drive new-comers bankrupt since the established guy has already written off the $$$ while the new guy hasn't. [Chose which scenario you like.] Either way, there's a monopoly, which means high prices.

Don't we have at least 3?

Garmin
Bendix-King
Avidyne

others?

[BobTurner]

Originally Posted by RV7A Flyer

Don't we have at least 3?

Garmin
Bendix-King
Avidyne

others?

How many of those 3 will sell you an IFR TSO'd GPS for under 10K? I think the answer is only one. The others are careful not to compete on price at the low end; instead, they cater to the high end, for those who will buy on features regardless of price. So yes, at the high end, there is competition. But in the context of this discussion I don't think $14K boxes are what people had in mind.

[RV7A Flyer]

Originally Posted by BobTurner

How many of those 3 will sell you an IFR TSO'd GPS for under 10K? I think the answer is only one. The others are careful not to compete on price at the low end; instead, they cater to the high end, for those who will buy on features regardless of price. So yes, at the high end, there is competition. But in the context of this discussion I don't think $14K boxes are what people had in mind.

Well, I don't know the full-up prices for all the boxes plus whatever doodads one needs for any given box, but just looking at the front page at GCA (e.g.) shows a 650 for 10K, a KSN770 for 12K, and an IFD440 for 11K.

The prices aren't that far apart...not insignificant, but not horrible. But then again, that's not really the issue.

I suspect that people are looking for something like a Skyview with approach capability, for a few hundred more than without it. Unlikely that will happen, but more power to Dynon or whomever if they can do it.

It's a lot more than just the WAAS capability and validating the database, though...*lots* of software requirements, for starters.

[jrs14855]

I don't categorize pilots based on ratings. A wise old man once told me: you can take any airline in the world and apply the 10/40 rule. The top 10% are outstanding pilots. The next 40 are above average, the next 40 are below average, the bottom 10 are, well, not very good.
What has mitigated this is CRM. The copilot MUST intervene if the Capt. starts to do something even remotely dangerous.
In two years of full time instructing in the Pitts I had maybe 4 or 5 standout customers. One day a gentleman walked in the door with no appointment, just wanted to see if he could land a Pitts. He was a wide body Capt on international routes for one of the largest airlines. He had quite a bit of T6 and Cessna 180 time. If I had owned the airplane I would have let him go solo after 3 landings, he was that good. At the other end of the airline spectrum is some poor guy who could never learn to fly a Pitts. For example the 747 Capt who crashed his new Pitts fatally on a cross country.
I knew one airline pilot who bragged about flying his antique airplane thru the middle of Class B with the transponder turned off, not talking to anyone.

[Scott Hersha]

Minimum equipment to comply with 91.205? From an IFR navigation equipment stand point, it's the minimum equipment needed to navigate via what you have filed for. Minimally, this would be VOR airway navigation, so - you are legal to file and fly IFR with nothing more, navigation wise, than a VHF nav reciever - a VOR receiver, or Nav/Com of some kind (SL30, KX170, etc). Can you ask for and legally fly routes, either direct or not, based on GPS information with nothing more than a handheld, or non-certified GPS receiver for the enroute phase of flight? Of course you can, as long as you're in a radar environment with ATC radar coverage. You have to be able to revert to your onboard IFR approved navigation equipment (VOR in this case) if the ATC radar goes down, and you can't shoot a GPS based approach at your destination without TSO approach certified GPS equipment, but you can still do an ILS, LOC, or VOR based approach at your destination with the VHF nav equipment you have onboard. Enroute certified GPS equipment is necessary for filing GPS based routing for the enroute phase of flight, but it's not necessary if you are in a radar environment (almost everywhere) and you want to go direct based on your Garmin 396, etc. A VHF nav receiver will work all the time for IFR flying and work almost as efficiently as a $10K+ certified GPS navigator, with nothing more than a handheld GPS most of the time.

After 2020 when radar is replaced with satellites for ATC traffic separation (it won't), it won't make any difference, because you'll need to have a GPS based position information source (ADSB) that is highly accurate, and going direct will not be an issue. When all the rest of the VORs are decommissioned, then you'll need a TSO'd GPS nav source for IFR. Not til then though.

[jrs14855]

Originally Posted by Scott Hersha

Minimum equipment to comply with 91.205? From an IFR navigation equipment stand point, it's the minimum equipment needed to navigate via what you have filed for. Minimally, this would be VOR airway navigation, so - you are legal to file and fly IFR with nothing more, navigation wise, than a VHF nav reciever - a VOR receiver, or Nav/Com of some kind (SL30, KX170, etc). Can you ask for and legally fly routes, either direct or not, based on GPS information with nothing more than a handheld, or non-certified GPS receiver for the enroute phase of flight? Of course you can, as long as you're in a radar environment with ATC radar coverage. You have to be able to revert to your onboard IFR approved navigation equipment (VOR in this case) if the ATC radar goes down, and you can't shoot a GPS based approach at your destination without TSO approach certified GPS equipment, but you can still do an ILS, LOC, or VOR based approach at your destination with the VHF nav equipment you have onboard. Enroute certified GPS equipment is necessary for filing GPS based routing for the enroute phase of flight, but it's not necessary if you are in a radar environment (almost everywhere) and you want to go direct based on your Garmin 396, etc. A VHF nav receiver will work all the time for IFR flying and work almost as efficiently as a $10K+ certified GPS navigator, with nothing more than a handheld GPS most of the time.

After 2020 when radar is replaced with satellites for ATC traffic separation (it won't), it won't make any difference, because you'll need to have a GPS based position information source (ADSB) that is highly accurate, and going direct will not be an issue. When all the rest of the VORs are decommissioned, then you'll need a TSO'd GPS nav source for IFR. Not til then though.

Scott-
That is the most coherent explanation I have seen so far. As recently as late 2015 I flew 135 cargo flights with no GPS, no autopilot. Prior to that I had occasionally used my handheld GPS just as you described. I took the further precaution of listing the GPS as VFR only in remarks on IFR flight plan. For about two years I parked every morning very close to a certain FSDO office, so I wanted to cover all the bases.
I had not thought of the Collins Microline radios for a long time. The company just got an additional airplane and the #2 radios are all Collins.These radios can be found VERY cheap and I much prefer them to the King 170. A careful shopper could find a Navcom with glideslope and transponder for well under 2k. Back it up with a Sportys handheld navcom for 4330 and you're good to go IFR.

[jjconstant]

One wrinkle: as I understand it (not instrument rated yet), you need to verify that the missed approach point for an ILS approach doesn't require an ADF or IFR appproved gps to identify the missed approach point. If it does, you need an IFR GPS as well as an ILS.

[BobTurner]

Originally Posted by jjconstant

One wrinkle: as I understand it (not instrument rated yet), you need to verify that the missed approach point for an ILS approach doesn't require an ADF or IFR appproved gps to identify the missed approach point. If it does, you need an IFR GPS as well as an ILS.

On an ILS the missed approach point is always determined by the altimeter and glide slope. I think you meant the 'missed approach procedure' and you are correct, some of them require an ADF or TSO'd GPS in lieu of. You can buy a used adf pretty cheaply these days!