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  #51  
Old 11-17-2016, 01:26 PM
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SMO SMO is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Paule View Post
The reason he'll unlatch it the second time is that he'll interpret that checklist item as "operate latch."
LOL, that's funny, but if true it's also sad. "There is no substitute for thinking" and that includes checklists.
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  #52  
Old 11-17-2016, 01:30 PM
Adrian Bonwitt Adrian Bonwitt is online now
 
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Default Human factors..

So, you have just spent numerous years building an aeroplane, and you have invested a lot of time, energy and money in it. You built your dream hanger.

You have been racing around to finish the last bits, the list is endless.

You start your test phase, it's great...you are looking forward to taking the family away.

Then...it all goes wrong, there is no way you are going to let your pride and joy lose it's door. I can't even imagine how distracting it must be for a door (large aperture) to come open in flight.

The right thing to do is fly the aeroplane...but sometimes we all do stupid things...that we regret later. I had two good friends that I considered to be much better aviators than me. They had survived active duty during the Gulf War, one was a Boscombe Downe test pilot and both were very good pilots. But they still managed to get killed in aircraft accidents.

The -10 door is not ideal, but it is not a show stopper if treated correctly.

The whole incident is just so very sad.

Last edited by Adrian Bonwitt : 11-17-2016 at 01:36 PM.
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  #53  
Old 11-17-2016, 02:00 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian Bonwitt View Post
Then...it all goes wrong, there is no way you are going to let your pride and joy lose it's door. .
Yes. The "Save the Plane" mentality. It's very hard to accept bending metal on something you just spent 5 years of your life building. There have been at least 2 fatal RV-10 accidents where the airplane was stalled at low altitude, following a power loss. The pilots just could not bring themselves to accept the circumstances.
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  #54  
Old 11-17-2016, 02:32 PM
Avi8tor857 Avi8tor857 is offline
 
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Seems the Diamond DA-42 has a similar issue with the rear door. The EFIS, sensors, and checklist changes called out here may be of interest. The UAE required them to change the door to withstand unintended openings.

https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/ePublicat...018%202012.pdf

Last edited by Avi8tor857 : 11-17-2016 at 02:44 PM.
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  #55  
Old 11-17-2016, 02:32 PM
vic syracuse vic syracuse is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner View Post
Yes. The "Save the Plane" mentality. It's very hard to accept bending metal on something you just spent 5 years of your life building. There have been at least 2 fatal RV-10 accidents where the airplane was stalled at low altitude, following a power loss. The pilots just could not bring themselves to accept the circumstances.
We will never know for sure, as the pilots are not with us anymore. But I would submit that "saving the plane" may not be what is actually going through their mind. As GA pilots most of us don't get the chance to go through rigorous training that instills in you how to react in a sudden emergency. Unless you do it multiple times so that it becomes habit to ignore the massive noisy interruption, most people's first instinct is to deal with the problem. It can be so overwhelming that the potential consequences don't even enter into the thought process until it is too late. It's a lot like sneaking up on someone and hollering at them when they least expect it. Only the coolest can look back at you without jumping and reacting.

It really is important to spend some time before flying Phase I sitting in the cockpit and practicing how to deal with a potential failure. And there's no harm in flying with a good instructor prior to the test flights in ANY kind of airplane (doesn't have to be the make/model you are going to fly) and make it a really hard workout dealing with emergencies.

This approach has saved me more than once.

Vic
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  #56  
Old 11-17-2016, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vic syracuse View Post
It can be so overwhelming that the potential consequences don't even enter into the thought process until it is too late. It's a lot like sneaking up on someone and hollering at them when they least expect it. Only the coolest can look back at you without jumping and reacting.
Agree totally - instinctive action before the brain can get in gear. Exactly my experience with the tipover canopy lifting during take-off, the reaction to immediately reach for it was automatic.............much to my detriment.
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  #57  
Old 11-17-2016, 04:31 PM
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Walt Walt is online now
 
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Flight #2 with my new RV7 and guess what, forgot to latch the canopy (hot day taxing with it open bla bla bla). When it popped open on lift off (probably about 8") those famous words were all I could hear "fly the airplane" until I came around and landed. Never even tried to grab it as I was just to busy/focused on keeping flying. Turned out to be a non issued but it was a great "learning" experience. Back then VAF was just getting started (MATRONIX days) and I never remember seeing anything about what would happen to the canopy if you left it open, so it was pretty exciting.
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  #58  
Old 11-17-2016, 05:39 PM
Captain Avgas Captain Avgas is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vic syracuse View Post
Rather than get into arguments about redesigning the aircraft, let's either get back on track about checklists, best practices, and flying the aircraft whenever something unexpected happens, which I think can really add some valuable knowledge here to everyone, especially the new builders/flyers, or we can close the thread.

Vic
Avi8tor857 suggested that there could be good grounds for a redesign of the RV10 door. You strongly disagree and believe that adherence to a proper checklist would be sufficient. I think that both parties are surely entitled to their opinion.

However you are intimating in the post above that if Avi8tor857 and others continue to disagree with you then you will exercise your privilege as a moderator to close the thread. Some on VansAirforce may consider that to be an inappropriate intimidation of posters with an opposing view to your own.
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Last edited by Captain Avgas : 11-17-2016 at 05:42 PM.
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  #59  
Old 11-17-2016, 06:42 PM
Kyle Boatright Kyle Boatright is offline
 
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There are two issues being argued here.

1) Be a pilot. Follow your checklists, and in the event that something happens, concentrate on your main responsibility of flying the airplane. I don't think anyone disagrees with this.

2) Something as simple as a door should never (on its own) be a safety of flight issue, even if improperly operated. Door latches need to be simple and reliable. They shouldn't have a gotcha where they can result in the departure of a door when improperly latched.

Instructors need to handle item #1 on BFR's and at other opportunities.

Engineers need to address #2. Band Aid fixes such as extra latches are an improvement, but the goal should be to solve the underlying issue of a top hinged door with fiddly latches,
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  #60  
Old 11-17-2016, 08:54 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Boatright View Post
There are two issues being argued here.

1) Be a pilot. Follow your checklists, and in the event that something happens, concentrate on your main responsibility of flying the airplane. I don't think anyone disagrees with this.

2) Something as simple as a door should never (on its own) be a safety of flight issue, even if improperly operated. Door latches need to be simple and reliable. They shouldn't have a gotcha where they can result in the departure of a door when improperly latched.

Instructors need to handle item #1 on BFR's and at other opportunities.

Engineers need to address #2. Band Aid fixes such as extra latches are an improvement, but the goal should be to solve the underlying issue of a top hinged door with fiddly latches,
I would submit that if you follow #1, then #2 will not be a safety of flight issue.
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