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11-17-2016, 01:26 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Salmon Arm, BC
Posts: 933
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Paule
The reason he'll unlatch it the second time is that he'll interpret that checklist item as "operate latch."
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LOL, that's funny, but if true it's also sad. "There is no substitute for thinking" and that includes checklists.
__________________
Mark Olson
1987 RV-4 Sold
2003 Super Decathlon - Sold
F1 EVO Rocket, first flight May 31/14
First in line for the Sonex JSX-2T kit
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11-17-2016, 01:30 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Alton, Hampshire
Posts: 25
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Human factors..
So, you have just spent numerous years building an aeroplane, and you have invested a lot of time, energy and money in it. You built your dream hanger.
You have been racing around to finish the last bits, the list is endless.
You start your test phase, it's great...you are looking forward to taking the family away.
Then...it all goes wrong, there is no way you are going to let your pride and joy lose it's door. I can't even imagine how distracting it must be for a door (large aperture) to come open in flight.
The right thing to do is fly the aeroplane...but sometimes we all do stupid things...that we regret later. I had two good friends that I considered to be much better aviators than me. They had survived active duty during the Gulf War, one was a Boscombe Downe test pilot and both were very good pilots. But they still managed to get killed in aircraft accidents.
The -10 door is not ideal, but it is not a show stopper if treated correctly.
The whole incident is just so very sad.
Last edited by Adrian Bonwitt : 11-17-2016 at 01:36 PM.
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11-17-2016, 02:00 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 6,797
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian Bonwitt
Then...it all goes wrong, there is no way you are going to let your pride and joy lose it's door. .
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Yes. The "Save the Plane" mentality. It's very hard to accept bending metal on something you just spent 5 years of your life building. There have been at least 2 fatal RV-10 accidents where the airplane was stalled at low altitude, following a power loss. The pilots just could not bring themselves to accept the circumstances.
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11-17-2016, 02:32 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Flowery Branch
Posts: 9
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Seems the Diamond DA-42 has a similar issue with the rear door. The EFIS, sensors, and checklist changes called out here may be of interest. The UAE required them to change the door to withstand unintended openings.
https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/ePublicat...018%202012.pdf
Last edited by Avi8tor857 : 11-17-2016 at 02:44 PM.
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11-17-2016, 02:32 PM
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Super Moderator
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Locust Grove, GA
Posts: 2,627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner
Yes. The "Save the Plane" mentality. It's very hard to accept bending metal on something you just spent 5 years of your life building. There have been at least 2 fatal RV-10 accidents where the airplane was stalled at low altitude, following a power loss. The pilots just could not bring themselves to accept the circumstances.
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We will never know for sure, as the pilots are not with us anymore. But I would submit that "saving the plane" may not be what is actually going through their mind. As GA pilots most of us don't get the chance to go through rigorous training that instills in you how to react in a sudden emergency. Unless you do it multiple times so that it becomes habit to ignore the massive noisy interruption, most people's first instinct is to deal with the problem. It can be so overwhelming that the potential consequences don't even enter into the thought process until it is too late. It's a lot like sneaking up on someone and hollering at them when they least expect it. Only the coolest can look back at you without jumping and reacting.
It really is important to spend some time before flying Phase I sitting in the cockpit and practicing how to deal with a potential failure. And there's no harm in flying with a good instructor prior to the test flights in ANY kind of airplane (doesn't have to be the make/model you are going to fly) and make it a really hard workout dealing with emergencies.
This approach has saved me more than once.
Vic
__________________
 Vic Syracuse
Built RV-4, RV-6, 2-RV-10's, RV-7A, RV-8, Prescott Pusher, Kitfox Model II, Kitfox Speedster, Kitfox 7 Super Sport, Just Superstol, DAR, A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor, CFII-ASMEL/ASES
Kitplanes "Unairworthy" monthly feature
EAA Sport Aviation "Checkpoints" column
EAA Homebuilt Council Chair/member EAA BOD
Author "Pre-Buy Guide for Amateur-Built Aircraft"
www.Baselegaviation.com
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11-17-2016, 03:19 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Salmon Arm, BC
Posts: 933
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vic syracuse
It can be so overwhelming that the potential consequences don't even enter into the thought process until it is too late. It's a lot like sneaking up on someone and hollering at them when they least expect it. Only the coolest can look back at you without jumping and reacting.
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Agree totally - instinctive action before the brain can get in gear. Exactly my experience with the tipover canopy lifting during take-off, the reaction to immediately reach for it was automatic.............much to my detriment.
__________________
Mark Olson
1987 RV-4 Sold
2003 Super Decathlon - Sold
F1 EVO Rocket, first flight May 31/14
First in line for the Sonex JSX-2T kit
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11-17-2016, 04:31 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Dallas/Ft Worth, TX
Posts: 5,687
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Flight #2 with my new RV7 and guess what, forgot to latch the canopy (hot day taxing with it open bla bla bla). When it popped open on lift off (probably about 8") those famous words were all I could hear "fly the airplane" until I came around and landed. Never even tried to grab it as I was just to busy/focused on keeping flying. Turned out to be a non issued but it was a great "learning" experience. Back then VAF was just getting started (MATRONIX days) and I never remember seeing anything about what would happen to the canopy if you left it open, so it was pretty exciting.
__________________
Walt Aronow, DFW, TX (52F)
EXP Aircraft Services LLC
Specializing in RV Condition Inspections, Maintenance, Avionics Upgrades
Dynamic Prop Balancing, Pitot-Static Altmeter/Transponder Certification
FAA Certified Repair Station, AP/IA/FCC GROL, EAA Technical Counselor
Authorized Garmin G3X Dealer/Installer
RV7A built 2004, 1700+ hrs, New Titan IO-370, Bendix Mags
Website: ExpAircraft.com, Email: walt@expaircraft.com, Cell: 972-746-5154
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11-17-2016, 05:39 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vic syracuse
Rather than get into arguments about redesigning the aircraft, let's either get back on track about checklists, best practices, and flying the aircraft whenever something unexpected happens, which I think can really add some valuable knowledge here to everyone, especially the new builders/flyers, or we can close the thread.
Vic
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Avi8tor857 suggested that there could be good grounds for a redesign of the RV10 door. You strongly disagree and believe that adherence to a proper checklist would be sufficient. I think that both parties are surely entitled to their opinion.
However you are intimating in the post above that if Avi8tor857 and others continue to disagree with you then you will exercise your privilege as a moderator to close the thread. Some on VansAirforce may consider that to be an inappropriate intimidation of posters with an opposing view to your own.
__________________
You’re only as good as your last landing 
Bob Barrow
RV7A
Last edited by Captain Avgas : 11-17-2016 at 05:42 PM.
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11-17-2016, 06:42 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 4,219
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There are two issues being argued here.
1) Be a pilot. Follow your checklists, and in the event that something happens, concentrate on your main responsibility of flying the airplane. I don't think anyone disagrees with this.
2) Something as simple as a door should never (on its own) be a safety of flight issue, even if improperly operated. Door latches need to be simple and reliable. They shouldn't have a gotcha where they can result in the departure of a door when improperly latched.
Instructors need to handle item #1 on BFR's and at other opportunities.
Engineers need to address #2. Band Aid fixes such as extra latches are an improvement, but the goal should be to solve the underlying issue of a top hinged door with fiddly latches,
__________________
Kyle Boatright
Marietta, GA
2001 RV-6 N46KB
2019(?) RV-10
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11-17-2016, 08:54 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 6,797
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Boatright
There are two issues being argued here.
1) Be a pilot. Follow your checklists, and in the event that something happens, concentrate on your main responsibility of flying the airplane. I don't think anyone disagrees with this.
2) Something as simple as a door should never (on its own) be a safety of flight issue, even if improperly operated. Door latches need to be simple and reliable. They shouldn't have a gotcha where they can result in the departure of a door when improperly latched.
Instructors need to handle item #1 on BFR's and at other opportunities.
Engineers need to address #2. Band Aid fixes such as extra latches are an improvement, but the goal should be to solve the underlying issue of a top hinged door with fiddly latches,
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I would submit that if you follow #1, then #2 will not be a safety of flight issue.
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