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  #1  
Old 04-30-2005, 11:10 PM
Ted Farmin Ted Farmin is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sandpoint, Idaho
Posts: 104
Default PCV valve on engine

Alright you gearhead engine types, why can't we run the crankcase vent
after it come out of the oil seperator into the air box like boats and cars
do. This would eliminate the oil residue on the belly. I have worked on
Graymarine engines that the vent went to a plate under the carb. that
maintained a vacum in the crankcase. Never saw any spark plug fouling
caused by this so what could be the argument FAA. Also no freezing of
the vent tube.
Ted
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  #2  
Old 10-17-2007, 11:05 PM
gasman gasman is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sonoma County
Posts: 3,821
Default WHY NOT??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Farmin View Post
Alright you gearhead engine types, why can't we run the crankcase vent??
Ted
Can we find an reply to thei question?...............
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  #3  
Old 10-18-2007, 12:04 AM
asav8tor asav8tor is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Seattle, wa
Posts: 679
Default

No.

That's the short answer.

When, if you go neg G, oil flows out the breather. It flows so fast you can feed it to the engine driven pump to supply the engine. AKA inverted oil system.

If the breather was piped to to carb via pcv set up...... oh S##t when the engine quits running due to massive amounts of oil getting consumed down the carb/injector servo.

If you use an air/oil separator, (really bad idea to use one by the way) it cannot in all cases prevent gobs of oil from going overboard in all situations. In a pcv set up, gobs of oil going in the engine.


Just say no to pcv.

Last edited by asav8tor : 10-18-2007 at 12:12 AM.
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  #4  
Old 10-18-2007, 05:00 AM
JHines JHines is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Rock Hill, SC
Posts: 390
Default Hmmm....good point

Car engines have breather cans inside the block that prevent any substantial amount of liquid oil from going in the PCV hose.
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  #5  
Old 10-18-2007, 05:46 AM
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AltonD AltonD is offline
 
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Location: Dothan, Alabama
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by asav8tor View Post

If you use an air/oil separator, (really bad idea to use one by the way) it cannot in all cases prevent gobs of oil from going overboard in all situations.

Why the bad idea for the oil separator?
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  #6  
Old 10-18-2007, 06:09 AM
asav8tor asav8tor is offline
 
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Location: Seattle, wa
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Consider what comes out of the breather:

Air
Oil
Oil mist
Water
Steam
Acid
Combustion fumes
Other junk

Some of this is emulsified. How good of a job do you think that oil separator is doing returning only oil back to the engine?

Hint: Not very good. Yea the belly is cleaner but the inside of the engine pays the price.

Get rid of that junk. Don't put it back into your engine.
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  #7  
Old 10-19-2007, 03:55 AM
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gmcjetpilot gmcjetpilot is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,283
Default He said 'emulsified'

You just don't get a chance to say emulsified every day. Doha!

PCV was for emissions on cars in the late 50's early 60's and really is no benefit for planes. Well I'm lying a little. Positive Crank Case Ventilation has some benefits, like possibly cleaner oil. If you ever worked on old car engines, you find lots of gook in them, pre-PVC. But we change our oil every 25 hours anyway. Air-cooled engines do have more blow-by, so there's plenty of positive pressure to blow out the vent to take the gook with it. It does not NEED more suck on the vent to vent in other words.

Time honored consensus is a neutral or slight positive pressure at the vent exit is good. Suction or negative pressure at the vent exit just means sucking out more oil than would normally vent. Just let it vent naturally is the advice I give. Many a builder have accidentally put his vent in the air-stream with a square cut exit. They found oil got sucked out their engine at an alarming rate. You don't want to increase oil use.


USING THE EXHAUST FOR A VENT?
To open "da udder can-O-worms", some guys are enamored with the IDEA of routing the crank case vent to the exhaust. I did a lot of research on using the exhaust for crank venting. In my opinion there are too many unknowns. A few possible failure scenarios could mean no vent at all. Also pressure in the exhaust of a plane varies wildly. In drag car's, it's just, Waaaaa, wide open...shut down, which is another story.

Some drag cars use exhaust vented crankcases set-ups or belt driven vacuum pumps to pull down the crank pressure, which increases piston seating, thus making more power. The exhaust set-up often has some kind of reverse flow valve. Would you put that on a plane? What if the valve stuck closed? Keep in mind these are supercharged drag engines turning 9,000 rpm. The piston and rings get changed every race or week. Do we need to change or increase RING seating on a Lycoming? Oil use is needed in air cooled engines. Oil use is normal and encouraged. This is why I say unknowns.

My biggest worry is a BLOCKED VENT. Blowing the front seal and massive oil loss means all kinds of hurt. If some one came up with some standard components to vent through the exhaust, flight tested, sized, redundant and fail-safe, great. However getting hot rod parts for a V8 or home brewed exhaust vent is a big if. Some concerns are:
Excessive loss of oil
Too effective at high power
Not effective (especially at altitude or low power)
Exhaust blown back (pos pressure) into crankcase (need valve?)
If reverse flow valve is used, could it fail closed and kill all venting
Fitting inside exhaust blocks exhaust flow (neg affect on performance)
More hoses, weight, cost and fab time welding on exhaust, for what?
The time honored vent hose end in the cowl, just above the hot exhaust, with the angle cut facet facing fwd works. Why re-invent the wheel. It's in the RV plans. Of course a whistle slot is a good idea as always.

Regarding air/oil separator, ditto as asav8tor. If you are blowing so much oil out the vent you need to collect it, you have an engine issue. A healthy Lyc flown regularly should not burn more than say one qt in 15 hours, min 8, max over +20 hours per qt. A lot of that oil is being burned and goes out the tail pipes anyway, not the vent. I've run both w/ and with out air/oil separator. There's was no difference on the belly. I collected to return line in a bottle, not returning it to the engine. As asav8tor said its an emulsified mess. So I had the hassle of draining the bottle from time to time. Keep it light and save your money.
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Last edited by gmcjetpilot : 10-19-2007 at 04:18 AM.
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  #8  
Old 10-19-2007, 04:59 AM
Randy Walls's Avatar
Randy Walls Randy Walls is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kennesaw, GA
Posts: 99
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by asav8tor View Post
Consider what comes out of the breather:

Air
Oil
Oil mist
Water
Steam
Acid
Combustion fumes
Other junk

Some of this is emulsified. How good of a job do you think that oil separator is doing returning only oil back to the engine?

Hint: Not very good. Yea the belly is cleaner but the inside of the engine pays the price.

Get rid of that junk. Don't put it back into your engine.
I have been thinking about using an oil separator and catching the goop that comes out in a small container. The container would have to be drained fairly often but that would be easier than cleaning the belly. Think it would work?
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  #9  
Old 10-19-2007, 06:36 AM
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mburch mburch is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Northwestern USA
Posts: 1,209
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Walls View Post
I have been thinking about using an oil separator and catching the goop that comes out in a small container. The container would have to be drained fairly often but that would be easier than cleaning the belly. Think it would work?
Andair has one that does exactly that. I bought one from him at Oshkosh because I'm a sucker for really beautifully machined components. He made the same points about not returning the gunk to the crankcase, and I tend to agree. Hopefully it will work to keep the mess off my belly (airplane's belly that is) and won't be too obnoxious to drain at oil change time.

mcb
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