VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

-POSTING RULES
-Advertise in here!
- Today's Posts | Insert Pics

Keep VAF Going
Donate methods

Point your
camera app here
to donate fast.


Go Back   VAF Forums > Avionics / Interiors / Fiberglass > ADS-B
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-17-2016, 09:38 AM
John-G John-G is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 759
Default ADS-B --- when eyeballs are not enough

One sunny clear afternoon a couple of days after Memorial Day, while receiving RV-12 transition training, the instructor and I were climbing out upwind of runway 29 at Petaluma, CA (O69) and beginning a right turn to crosswind when we heard a pilot say he was entering the downwind for 29 on the 45. We couldn?t spot him after finishing the turn to crosswind, nor could we see him after turning downwind ? but the ABS-B box feeding the Garmin G3X sure could. We called out to the pilot to find out what speed the aircraft was flying in the pattern, fortunately it was 15 knots faster than our speed ? we could relax a little.

Both the instructor and myself were looking HARD to spot the aircraft, but we just couldn?t locate it ? and we both KNEW it was less than a mile directly in front of us. The ADS-B showed we were not gaining on it, but the aircraft was lost to our vision in ground clutter and we simply could not spot it. Guess we were nearing mid-field on downwind when the pilot called his turn to base and as the aircraft?s left wing lifted for the turn, we both instantly spotted it directly in front of us and a little lower.

We commented to the pilot that although we couldn?t spot him visually until his turn to base, the ADS-B box sure knew where he was ? amazing technology. His reply was that he too had ADS-B and was watching us as well.

This real-time experience with ADS-B just reaffirmed my decision to install ADS-B in my RV-12 during the build is indeed, a good one. There are times when keeping eyeballs outside the cockpit is just not good enough to spot traffic ? even when you know traffic is right in front of you. Without a doubt, ADS-B is a safety enhancement and a useful tool to improve situational awareness.
__________________
John
http://www.dogaviation.com/

RV-12 Wings, Empennage, Fuselage, Finishing, Avionics and Powerplant kits all completed
Now Flying!!

Donation paid until September 2021
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-17-2016, 10:01 AM
DHeal DHeal is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Windsor, California
Posts: 1,005
Default

John, I agree with you - ADS-B is a real "eye opener" when it comes to locating unseen traffic. However, as you know, ADS-B does not see ALL traffic. ADS-B is an aid, not a panacea. There are many situations where ADS-B does not see traffic (e.g., either plane is outside FAA radar coverage, other plane has no transponder or it is not turned on, etc.). ADS-B is an aid to flight safety and I use it to supplement my eyeballs. Having said all that, I find the ADS-B to be a very useful tool for traffic awareness and weather information.
__________________
David Heal - Windsor, CA (near Santa Rosa)
EAA #23982 (circa 1965) - EAA Technical Counselor and Flight Advisor; CFI - A&I
RV-12 E-LSA #120496 (SV w/ AP and ADS-B 2020) - N124DH flying since March 2014 - 1,080+ hours (as of Oct 2021)!
VAF donation through June 2022.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-17-2016, 12:14 PM
rvbuilder2002's Avatar
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,666
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHeal View Post
John, I agree with you - ADS-B is a real "eye opener" when it comes to locating unseen traffic. However, as you know, ADS-B does not see ALL traffic. ADS-B is an aid, not a panacea. There are many situations where ADS-B does not see traffic (e.g., either plane is outside FAA radar coverage, other plane has no transponder or it is not turned on, etc.). ADS-B is an aid to flight safety and I use it to supplement my eyeballs. Having said all that, I find the ADS-B to be a very useful tool for traffic awareness and weather information.
I fully agree!

The OP's post also points out the important safety consideration of all aircraft flying at the published TPA in the pattern. Unless there is some seriously elevated terrain in the background, traffic ahead should not be lost in the ground clutter if both airplanes are flying at TPA in the down wind. That is the reason pattern entries into the downwind should be the safest (and prescribed in the AIM)..... if two airplanes are at the same altitude, the back ground should be open sky the majority of the time, which does make them much easier to be seen by others.
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.

Scott McDaniels
Hubbard, Oregon
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
FAA/DAR
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-17-2016, 05:27 PM
Jrskygod Jrskygod is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Edinburg, TX
Posts: 648
Default

This ADSB stuff is great and all, but it can get you so used to it showing the other planes on the panel or IPad etc. that you can easily become complacent and not use diligence in visually scanning for traffic. I always use it to help me spot traffic and to anticipate when displayed traffic might become a threat. The other day I came within 500' of another aircraft and he never showed up on the screen. I didn't see him until the last minute. He never saw me as he took no evasive action. Thankfully I dove and turned sharply to avoid him.

After I extracted the seat cushion from my derriere I tried to figure out how could this happen with all of this ADSB stuff on board and why didn't I see the plane in good VFR weather? The first thing I noticed was at the bottom of the screen where the ADSB tag is shown. Normally it reads ADSB on one line and immediately below it shows RADAR. That's what I almost always see. However at the time of the problem for some reason radar was out and the line read NO RADAR. There were no flashing lights or buzzers going off to alert me and I did not see the word NO or if I did it just did not register with my brain. Just before I spotted the plane I had also reached over to input the frequency of the airport I was headed to. As I looked back from the radio to outside all I could see was the other plane coming at me from an angle and i made evasive maneuvers to avoid the collision.

I diligently try to keep my eyeballs outside the plane when VFR. I use the ADSB to help me identify targets and to spot them easier. I allowed myself to become very reliant on the ADSB display without even realizing it. I now know that this equipment is not 100% and keep the ADSB/RADAR tag in my scan. I now am much more aware of the limitations of the equipment and myself.

As we get more and more of these systems and other sorts of wonderful piloting aids in the cockpits we must all be very careful to not let them take over our primary duty to fly the plane and look outside. If I ever share some airspace with you rest assured that i will have eyes outside and I hope you will as well.
__________________
RV-3 Rebuilding
RV-9 Flying and having fun, experimenting and having fun, did I mention flying and having fun?
RV-6A SOLD
Maule M5-235C SOLD
C-172G SOLD
Stinson L5 SOLD
Grumman AA1A SOLD
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-19-2016, 08:57 AM
bret's Avatar
bret bret is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Gardnerville Nv.
Posts: 2,828
Default

I plan to fly with all my LED position, strobe and landing lights on for this reason, night and day, it costs only a few amps and well worth it to me, I want to be seen!
__________________
7A Slider, EFII Angle 360, CS, SJ.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-19-2016, 01:49 PM
MVPILOT MVPILOT is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Mount Vernon, WA
Posts: 97
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bret View Post
I plan to fly with all my LED position, strobe and landing lights on for this reason, night and day, it costs only a few amps and well worth it to me, I want to be seen!
I fly with everything on as well.

My question is; how do I know if my production RV-12 has ADS-B out? If it shows up in the POH in the weight and balance should I assume I have it?

If I have ADS-B OUT about how much will it cost to have ADS-B IN so I can get traffic and weather on my second Dynon Skyview SV-D1000T?
__________________
RV-12 iS SLSA KBVS Washington State
Due Paid
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-19-2016, 08:10 PM
maus92 maus92 is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Annapolis MD
Posts: 457
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MVPILOT View Post
I fly with everything on as well.

My question is; how do I know if my production RV-12 has ADS-B out? If it shows up in the POH in the weight and balance should I assume I have it?

If I have ADS-B OUT about how much will it cost to have ADS-B IN so I can get traffic and weather on my second Dynon Skyview SV-D1000T?
Vans should be able to tell you if ADS-B Out was installed. You could also submit for an FAA check of the integrity of your system (described elsewhere in this forum.) And there should be some configuration settings in your Skyview system that would indicate whether or not ADS-B Out is enabled on the aircraft. You could also look at the installed GPS antenna - for ADS-B Out, the model number should be SV GPS 2020. For an integrated ADS-B In solution, Dynon sells a traffic and FIS-B receiver for $1000.
__________________
CA
2000 RV-8A | O-360, SDS CPI, FP, G3X Touch, VP-X, EarthX | Eastern Shore | KESN
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-19-2016, 08:22 PM
maus92 maus92 is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Annapolis MD
Posts: 457
Default

Even though I fly eyes out all the time, I have found that automated traffic systems help immensely. In fact, ADS-B / TIS are usually the first to "see" *participating* traffic - and cue you where to look for visual confirmation (and sometimes you never see the traffic even after you have been alerted to its presence.) Of course, if you fly in airspace that allows non-equipped aircraft, your eyeballs are going to be the only sensor that will work to detect those aircraft. So as with most things in aviation, redundancy / multiple *systems* are good.
__________________
CA
2000 RV-8A | O-360, SDS CPI, FP, G3X Touch, VP-X, EarthX | Eastern Shore | KESN
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-20-2016, 11:09 AM
dtw_rv6 dtw_rv6 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Martinsville, IN
Posts: 455
Default

After flying with ADSB for over a year now, I can tell anyone confidently that it absolutely does help with traffic avoidance. it is a real eye opener (sorry) to realize just how often you can pass within a mile or two of traffic without visual contact.

I'm glad to have it as one more tool that sits right beside my Zaon MRX. Both will be in my cockpit for a long time to come.

Don
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-20-2016, 03:18 PM
PerfTech's Avatar
PerfTech PerfTech is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Redlands, Ca.
Posts: 1,525
Default Some Mixed Feelings!!

... The traffic doesn't always catch everything (every aircraft). In the last year or so with this installed, I have had a few close encounters that really got my attention. These were enough to somewhat lower my confidence with the system. It is nice to have most of the time but I do have a few things that I am unhappy with. Many times I have gotten a false indication (scares the he-- out of me) of an aircraft right under or over me, about to collide with me. I practically pull mussels in my neck trying to look for it, before I realize what is going on! This is a ghost of my own aircraft, but it is very unnerving. The other main complaint for me is this. I fly in So Cal where much of the time it is very congested. When coming into large airports, with congested airspace, the traffic on the screen can be overwhelming. Just this last weekend it happened, and there were 23 aircraft, plus my ghost, in a very close proximity to me at this airport. Perhaps, I am getting old, but I don't think this fast, and am possibly better off not knowing they are there? Most of this traffic you can't find if over 1/2 mile away and it adds a lot of work load trying. Are these issues common to others, or is it just me? Thanks, Allan
__________________
Allan Nimmo
AntiSplatAero.com
Innovative Aircraft Safety
Products, Tools & Services
Info@AntiSplatAero.com
Southern California (KREI)
RV-9A / Edge-540
(909) 824-1020
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:29 PM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.