VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics


Go Back   VAF Forums > Main > RV General Discussion/News
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #11  
Old 07-27-2016, 02:40 PM
JonJay's Avatar
JonJay JonJay is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Battleground
Posts: 4,348
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian_JOY View Post
A couple of comments - I've made them here before. Sorry to be so frank, but tell me, do you carry life insurance? Will you leave behind family members who might give a hoot about your well-being? If you answered "yes" to either of those questions, you want your carcass to be found quickly. 406 is the only way to go, if for no reason than to help your family access your life insurance funds more quickly.

With respect to carrying a PLB, that's a great idea IN ADDITION to a 406 ELT. While you're at it, file a flight plan or flight itinerary so folks will know when you haven't arrived as expected. Belt, suspenders, and another belt if you can. You most certainly don't want to be reliant on a device that you have to activate manually - you may not be either conscious or alive to do so. Remember, it might be your passenger who has survived - your choice of ELT needs to ensure they don't needlessly suffer in the event you don't survive the impact.

.
I like frankness and appreciate it. Your opinion is appreciated.
I am self insured. Your points are biased to your own situation and values, but well taken. Each must make their own.
I am still waiting to hear about the ELT that saved somebody's bacon in an RV, or even one that located a crash site. Are there any? There has to be some.
Sorry Bret - Hopefully this discussion gets you closer to your own decision. I will bow out now, listen and learn. (Would it surprise you that I haven't upgraded my ELT?
__________________
Smart People do Stupid things all the time. I know, I've seen me do'em.

RV6 - Builder/Flying
Bucker Jungmann
Fiat G.46 -(restoration in progress, if I have enough life left in me)
RV1 - Proud Pilot.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-27-2016, 08:08 PM
bret's Avatar
bret bret is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Gardnerville Nv.
Posts: 2,828
Default

I am leaning towards Kannad, I am working with a Local Dynon dealer friend who is helping with my install and he suggested using the Dynon GPS for location, do you know if this brand will accept external GPS input from the Dynon GPS?
__________________
7A Slider, EFII Angle 360, CS, SJ.

Last edited by bret : 07-27-2016 at 08:09 PM. Reason: spell
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-27-2016, 08:15 PM
bret's Avatar
bret bret is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Gardnerville Nv.
Posts: 2,828
Default

So I guess the 406 units have built in GPS? looking at this one 11-09927
__________________
7A Slider, EFII Angle 360, CS, SJ.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-27-2016, 08:39 PM
bret's Avatar
bret bret is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Gardnerville Nv.
Posts: 2,828
Default

crickets.....I hear crickets.......where is everyone.......Oshkosh ? ok, wish I was there but any way, another question....on this Kannad I see an internal GPS antenna, so does the unit need to be mounted with a clear view of the sky? anyone.....Bueler?
__________________
7A Slider, EFII Angle 360, CS, SJ.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-27-2016, 08:53 PM
Canadian_JOY Canadian_JOY is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,291
Default

"I am still waiting to hear about the ELT that saved somebody's bacon in an RV, or even one that located a crash site. Are there any? There has to be some."

This is a common perception, that ELT's are a miserable failure. Unfortunately we often hear only about the failures, and not the 'saves'. I wouldn't expect you to take my word concerning the 406 "saves", so instead I'll refer you to a more official source. Sorry I wasn't able to find more current info in my quick search.

https://www.cospas-sarsat.int/images...L-v-091015.pdf

In particular, look at the first page of the document where the summary indicates more than 39,000 people saved by 406MHz emergency beacon technology since 1982. Keep in mind that includes ELTs, EPIRBs and PLBs. Since we're interested particularly in ELTs, take a look at page 6 where some "Notable Saves" are highlighted. The first two "saves" are aviation/ELT activations.

With respect to the concept that RV accidents are either survivable or not, let me suggest you give some consideration to the risks taken by those who perform Search and Rescue. If you happen to be the subject of a search effort, many people will be putting their lives on the line to go looking for you. Often those searches take place in poor weather, over inhospitable terrain, and sometimes the searchers themselves come to grief while doing their darndest to bring aid to a downed aircraft. Sure, you might have gone into the side of a hill in your RV and perished hours ago, with no more earthly cares. But those SAR folks all have families waiting at home for them. Why needlessly endanger them?

Sometimes we need to span our thinking out a bit and realize it's not just about us. Sometimes we need to consider those who are left behind after we've gone west.

Think about it...
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-27-2016, 09:01 PM
Canadian_JOY Canadian_JOY is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,291
Default

"crickets.....I hear crickets.......where is everyone.......Oshkosh ? ok, wish I was there but any way, another question....on this Kannad I see an internal GPS antenna, so does the unit need to be mounted with a clear view of the sky? anyone.....Bueler?"

The short answer is the Kannad Integra's internal antenna (both GPS and 406) have to be able to "see the sky" to function. As many RVs install the ELT in close proximity to the cockpit, a view of the sky isn't entirely impossible. I'm building an aircraft with a composite hull so this requirement is much easier to meet, but again, it's not impossible or even that difficult in a typical RV.

To answer your earlier question, some ELTs are capable of accepting GPS data from an external source, via NMEA0183 or similar RS-232 serial interface. Some ELTs require an interface box to make this work, and often the interface box costs as much or more than the ELT itself. In Canada, the connection of an external GPS to an ELT is considered "specialized work" and must be done by an appropriately-rated Approved Maintenance Organization (avionics shop).

One ELT that springs immediately to mind that features an interface to an external GPS is the ACK E-04 - its interface is included in the basic unit. The down-side to this device is that its connectors have a bit of a history of reliability challenges. Nuthin's purfect! LoL
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-27-2016, 09:27 PM
bret's Avatar
bret bret is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Gardnerville Nv.
Posts: 2,828
Default

A ha! so digging into this deeper, Vans sells the ELT bracket that gets installed behind the baggage wall on two J channels, totally enclosed in the aluminum fuse. So this was probably originally designed for the 121 and not the 406. The 406 needs to see the sky, so even if we put it in the baggage area, it is not going to see sky if and when most of the accident end up upside down......where is everyone putting this box? if the GPS antenna is on the unit, and folks are installing them incorrectly, maybe that's why we get the negative reports? I will be traveling Through the Sierras often and would like to be found if the unthinkable happens.
__________________
7A Slider, EFII Angle 360, CS, SJ.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-28-2016, 03:50 AM
RV7A Flyer's Avatar
RV7A Flyer RV7A Flyer is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: US
Posts: 2,251
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonJay View Post
I like frankness and appreciate it. Your opinion is appreciated.
I am self insured. Your points are biased to your own situation and values, but well taken. Each must make their own.
I am still waiting to hear about the ELT that saved somebody's bacon in an RV, or even one that located a crash site. Are there any? There has to be some.
Sorry Bret - Hopefully this discussion gets you closer to your own decision. I will bow out now, listen and learn. (Would it surprise you that I haven't upgraded my ELT?
So what's the difference between a 406 MHz ELT and a PLB, really? Essentially, only the automation of initiating a signal, right? They're both GPS-based, satellite-detected, and initiate S&R immediately upon receipt of first signal, IIRC.

So with a "standard" 121.5 old-school brick of an ELT in the back, and a PLB attached to me (my harness, actually), I have redundant systems and alternate actuation mechanisms. Unless I do something truly stupid and plow into a mountain while in IMC, and thus have no time to activate an emergency checklist, I can manually activate the PLB as part of my checklist activities *prior* to landing/crash, right?

In fact, this combination may be *more* robust than a single unit which combines GPS/satellite signal broadcast, since if that fails (gets destroyed on crashing), no signal will be sent.

The PLB is also much less bulky and more portable, should I have to leave the site of the crash for whatever reason.

So, IMO, you get essentially all of the benefits of a 406 unit, plus redundancy via separate devices and different activation mechanisms, with a 121.5 + PLB, at far less cost.

(ETA: Given the increasingly solid coverage of the country by ADS-B, I wonder if that wouldn't also increase the odds of finding wreckage, if the aircraft is ADS-B OUT equipped?)

Last edited by RV7A Flyer : 07-28-2016 at 03:53 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-28-2016, 05:36 AM
bret's Avatar
bret bret is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Gardnerville Nv.
Posts: 2,828
Default

That's a good point, maybe I'll look in that direction also. Is there anything in the pipes coming down that is going to require us to have a 406 in the Experimental.
__________________
7A Slider, EFII Angle 360, CS, SJ.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-28-2016, 07:21 AM
Raymo's Avatar
Raymo Raymo is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Richmond Hill, GA (KLHW)
Posts: 2,189
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bret View Post
A ha! so digging into this deeper, Vans sells the ELT bracket that gets installed behind the baggage wall on two J channels, totally enclosed in the aluminum fuse. So this was probably originally designed for the 121 and not the 406. The 406 needs to see the sky, so even if we put it in the baggage area, it is not going to see sky if and when most of the accident end up upside down......where is everyone putting this box? if the GPS antenna is on the unit, and folks are installing them incorrectly, maybe that's why we get the negative reports? I will be traveling Through the Sierras often and would like to be found if the unthinkable happens.
As has been mentioned in other threads, there are not many options in most RVs for the ELT location.

My opinion is that an ELT with built in GPS should have a dedicated antenna with a clear shot at the sky - which is useless if you end up upside down. Most seem to be installing with the Vans or similar bracket behind the baggage compartment and putting the antenna either under the tail cone cover or in the baggage compartment - bending the whip to contour with the airframe sides.

The Kannard unit you referenced above could be mounted in the baggage compartment with a fiberglass or plastic shield to keep it from being banged around.


The PLB is a good backup and we all like to have backup equipment.
__________________
Ray
RV-7A - Slider - N495KL - First flt 27 Jan 17
O-360-A4M w/ AFP FM-150 FI, Dual PMags, Vetterman Trombone Exh, SkyTech starter, BandC Alt (PP failed after 226 hrs)
Catto 3 blade NLE, FlightLines Interior, James cowl, plenum & intake, Anti-Splat -14 seat mod and nose gear support
All lines by TSFlightLines (aka Hoser)
Reply With Quote
Reply



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:05 AM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.