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  #1  
Old 11-26-2006, 07:32 PM
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petehowell petehowell is offline
 
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Default Carb O-320 LOP Analysis Graphs

Hello,

Alex Peterson and I have been taking data to see how best to lean my O-320. We have graphed the data the Dynon EMS is puking out and it is interesting. Note the #2 EGT has an offset issue - new probe will be installed.

Data taken at 7500 ft MSL.
- Run 1 WOT
- Run 2 WOT - 1" MP
- Run 3 WOT - 1" MP w Carb Heat

See Graphs - notice how the cracked Throttle Plate changes where the Cyls Peak (or don't). Our next step is to try WOT- 0.5"MP to see if the peaks act in any kind of linear manner and find a "happy place" where the peaks come together. If anyone has any insights - pass 'em along.

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Amateur Plane - RV-9A N789PH - 2350+ Hrs
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  #2  
Old 11-26-2006, 07:41 PM
Walter Atkinson Walter Atkinson is offline
 
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Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana
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Default

Pete:

You are inducing turbulence to increase vaporization. The application of partial carb heat works quite well to accomplish this. You might try leaving the throttle WOT and aplying carb heat to find the optimum temperature to increase vaporization. The optimum temperature will be using the least carb temperature that gets the lowest DIF number.

I do not knwo what it is in this engine, but once foud, it will work year round. In a C-182 it is 10dC. In a Twin Beech it is 0-2dC. Each application is different.

I'd like to know what it is in the O-320.

Walter
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  #3  
Old 11-26-2006, 07:48 PM
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petehowell petehowell is offline
 
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Default Thanks Walter

OK I'll leave the WOT and increase the carb heat. Do you think playing with the throttle plate position is worth the effort?

I'll post more data when I get time to fly
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Amateur Plane - RV-9A N789PH - 2350+ Hrs
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  #4  
Old 11-26-2006, 10:24 PM
zav6a zav6a is offline
 
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Location: Sedalia, Colorado (KAPA)
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Default Numbers

Great data. Huge spread. With tuned injectors, my airflow performance equipped 320 egts peak within 0.1 gph. Scary to think what might be happening with the lean till rough then rich till smooth method on carb models.

Is this with x-over exhaust?
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  #5  
Old 11-26-2006, 10:30 PM
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Default Yes X-over exhaust

The interesting thing is how cracking the throttle completely changes what cylinders peaked and if and where they peaked - leads you to believe there might be a "happy place" where they all might peak closely.

Kinda fun to take the data - Alex is great at the analysis and I am learning lots of new stuff - very fun
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  #6  
Old 11-27-2006, 01:16 PM
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gmcjetpilot gmcjetpilot is offline
 
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Default Hummm very interesting

pete nicely done. Data don't lie.

I could be wrong but this is why small 320's and 360's done run LOP very well, the spread in peak's v ff.

ACT I, what I see, normally WOT the fwd cylinder #1 an #2 run leaner than the back two, where the left one #4 is the most rich.

Act II, you close the butterfly a little and change the fuel distribution and almost reverse it front to back and lower the overall FF. (OK makes total sense since the butter fly angles fuel fwd and you have cut overall fuel.)

ACT III, carb heat has an overall leaning effect and seems to have balance the fwd cylinders left/right - #2/#1 peaks. I think this is partially random. I assume you have a Van's FAB. Unlike the carb heat airbox on a Cessna or Piper the flap or valve in not right under the throat of the carb, so carb heat has little effect other than lower MAP and increase air temp, which apparently reduces overall FF due to lower power (restricted airflow and lower density air). There is a technique C-182 guys do with the Carbed Continental that involves cracking the carb heat open to balance the peaks. I do not think this works as well or at all with our air box.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Theory: Because ALL the fuel originates out the mouth of the carb and than into sump plenum and 4 runners. After that its kind of hit miss where the fuel goes, #1, #2, #3 or #4. Now each cylinder is asking "FEED ME". There may be differences in the cylinders them self or the runners to each cylinders. However a good start is have a balanced feed to the 4 runners.

If you can divert or direct the air flow into one of the four runners you can manipulate the air/fuel balance. You could cut and modify the sump but that has some down side and may be bad news, so what about the air box?

The air flow into the carb mouth can be manipulate with something in the air box. This should have down stream affect on the flow of air/fuel mixture in one of 4 corners of the sump plenum?

Clearly the carb butter fly does a great job with fwd and aft bias. Now we need left right balance that does not use carb heat, which is very inefficient on the RV FAB. (It gives overall loss of power.)

Solution: Some little shape like a vane or cone in the bottom center of the air box that you can manipulate. Once the shape or shapes of the flow divider'(s) and/or guide'(s) are determined they are fixed. Doing this creates different airflow into the mouth of the carb, which in theory changes the output of the carb, favoring or starving one or the another cylinder as needed. Call it an AIR FLOW TRIM VANE or GUIDE.

You could make it fixed and change it between flights to experiment with the shapes in side the air box that balances the flow. The final balance may be good while still WOT and no carb heat! Anything in the base of the air box to divert more or less air into one of those 4 corners may be key to "trimming the air flow".


Cons: The big down side is anything in the induction that can or could come apart and get into the engine is bad, that is why I did not like the magnetic alt air door van offered with the FAB360. (Now he changed to a manual cable operated valve which is better but I don't need or think is needed for VFR ops.)


Summary: I think this has some merit. Clearly the Cessna C-182 airbox carb heat valve does fuel balancing as claimed by those operators. It's a big "seesaw" valve right under the carb. May be a little valve seesaw cable operation valve in the bottom air box may be a solution but at greater complication.

Experiment: My first shape would be a cone that slopes up from the bottom of the air box near the edge of the air filter to the center of the carb. It would be symetric at first and 360 degrees around. Offsetting the center of the cone (left/right/fwd/aft) relative to the carbs center, would smooth and bias the air flow. The result would be to enrichen or lean one or more cylinder as needed.

(click pic below)
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Last edited by gmcjetpilot : 11-28-2006 at 09:13 PM.
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  #7  
Old 11-27-2006, 01:56 PM
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petehowell petehowell is offline
 
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Default Thanks George

I give Alex credit for the analysis - I am still learning about leaning. If throttle plate and carb heat don't work - I like your idea for a "flow director"

We do have to make sure nothing gets sucked into the engine.......
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  #8  
Old 11-27-2006, 02:34 PM
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gmcjetpilot gmcjetpilot is offline
 
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Default Thank you

Quote:
Originally Posted by petehowell
I give Alex credit for the analysis - I am still learning about leaning. If throttle plate and carb heat don't work - I like your idea for a "flow director"
Well thanks to you and Alex. This is just what I thought. When Walter "Lean of Peak" came on the scene he enlightened many of us about LOPs, good info, no argument, but many of us flying 4-cylinder Carb 320's and 360's. This is Lycs position, its not consistently possible with their 4 cylinder engines, so they don't recommend it. Also with out full instrumentation its hard to know whats going on with large spreads in peaks.

My contention was LOP is not practical for 4-cyl with carbs. Of course this lead to urination matches. Never did I say LOP does not work, only its not practical for many or most of us with Carbs. Walter and his cronies expertise is more with Continentals in Bonanzas than 320 Lycs in RV's.

However with that said some folks say they can get their O320/O360 RV LOP? One gent who said this has a single CHT/EGT gauge. That concerns me. If you are going to do LOP, carb or FI, I still feel you needed all cylinders monitored, but that's my opinion.

Thanks again to you and Alex for the data, it confirms what I thought, Carb-ed 320's and 360's can ( I say can) have poor fuel distribution. I also have a theory that it varies wildly from engine to engine. The sump castings for example are not all the same. Some I have found have a lip near the carb, others don't. Its like the casting flash on some cylinders fins that blocks airflow and causes high CHT. I know ECI or Superior (one of them) makes a big marketing show of how their sump has ridges. It would be interesting to repeat this on other Carbed engines. ANY TAKERS?

May be, just may be LOP operations with a Carb can be done with some simple mods and/or technique. Even the FI guys have to money with their injectors. May be a simple mod, like the air box or sump will improve distribution so much we can run LOP routinely.
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  #9  
Old 11-27-2006, 09:10 PM
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AlexPeterson AlexPeterson is offline
 
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Default O360 FI for contrast

Perhaps this should be a whole new thread, but here is some data on an Airflow Performance FI system:

[IMG][/IMG][IMG][/IMG] [IMG][/IMG]

The first graph indicates that the injectors are balanced nicely, with #4 perhaps needing a slightly smaller orifice. They all peak within a .2 gph range, which is about 3% of total fuel flow. Also shown is how the IAS drops when moving LOP. All three graphs are of the same data, I've separated it to make it clearer.

The second graph demonstrates very clearly how CHT's climb towards a maximum in the range of 30F ROP (at these MAP and rpm settings, at least), but drop dramatically as one gets on the lean side of peak. I do not know if the offsets are due to calibration errors or cooling airflow differences from cylinder to cylinder.

Graph #3 is interesting in that it shows that maximum fuel economy is achieved around 60 to 70 F LOP or so. That is typically where I have run my engine, right at about 23 sq, 7.2 to 7.3 gph.
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  #10  
Old 11-28-2006, 09:33 AM
Walter Atkinson Walter Atkinson is offline
 
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**carb heat has an overall leaning effect **

I think you meant to say that carb heat has a richening effect. Hotter air is less dense, same FF = richer mixture, right?


As for the LOP in carbed engines it all comes down to ONE issue. Vaporization. If the fuel can be fully vaporized before the induction runners split off after the carb, the F:A ratios will be very close and the engine will run very smoothly LOP. It's not about re-directing air, it's about getting the fuel fully vaporized--FULLY--before it splits off to go into the runners. Remember the carb does not vaporize the fuel, it atomizes it. These various-sized liquid droplets of fuel are going different directions and the cylinders that get the big droplets are richer than the ones that get the little droplets. That's why the F:A ratios are so poor in most carbed engines.

Cracking the throttle plate induces turbulence which improves VAPORIZATION, not a change in where the air goes. Adding carb heat improves vaporization. That's what it all about. If you can do it with carb heat only, you get to keep WOT. Once you find the optimum carb temp to accomplish that, it works year round. Each installation can be a bit different on that.

Walter Atkinson
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