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  #21  
Old 09-08-2015, 01:15 AM
ron sterba ron sterba is offline
 
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Location: salem Oregon
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Hello Jon, Yes I agree with the fellows on putting the nose down to 90 mph and doing the 40-60 degree bank turn. In our flying club we required to demonstrate a departure on RWY34 climb 600'AGL and return and land on RWY 13 after pulling the power to idle in our 1974 Cessna 172. I didn't think it possible but the instructor does it flawlessly and he expects us to do it too. Yes its a weird flight pattern but as the group mentioned its doable. A real lifesaver to have in the brain in my opinion.

One gentleman mention about a author in Oregon and writes for Sport Aviation I think that might be referring to Laurin Paine at KSLE. Yes thats where we do the return procedure, tower and fire engines too on hand! (Rwys 13-31 & 16- 34 )

Ron in Oregon
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  #22  
Old 09-08-2015, 06:53 AM
jonweisw jonweisw is offline
 
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This is all GREAT advice! I'm looking forward to going back out and incorporating this into the 'experiment'. A couple questions and observations to add to the discussion;

1) The concept of trading speed for altitude makes sense to me - doing everything possible to avoid a stall. However, that seems to suggest that the climb should really be a Vy climb and then some (someone stated as much). On the other hand, the turn-back decision altitude (which is what makes the decision one way or the other) is just that - an altitude. So, wouldn't it make more sense to set that altitude prior to departure and then Vx it all the way there (ie, get to that altitude as fast as possible)?

2) The accelerated stall in my -8 that goes along with the turn around is REALLY pronounced with buffeting that is NOT subtle. In addition, in order to break the stall to level the wings, you end up very much nose down (hence the VSI being pegged). I cant imagine what the natural impulse would be if this were occurring at 500': the windscreen showing nothing but terrain, etc. This might explain why SO many experienced pilots fall into this trap, and why, ultimately, it might make sense to add 20% to the turn-back-altitude to account for the shock of experiencing this maneuver at low altitude.

3) Am I to understand that my schema for practicing this should include an extra 10kts to the best glide to account for the engine running? Does this relate (in terms of the simulation) to distance travelled or aerodynamics? For distance travelled, I get it. For exceeding critical angle, I dont.

4) While we are on the subject, what is everyone's best glide? What is your turn-back altitude? Would you rely on an AOA if you have one over your airspeed?

This whole experience has reiterated the need for a very conscious and deliberate departure briefing on every flight to including turn back altitude and direction and straight ahead landing areas (to the extent that they are known).

MANY thanks to everyone who is responding and to the moderators for bumping this to front page news!

Jon
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  #23  
Old 09-08-2015, 07:04 AM
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Kahuna Kahuna is offline
 
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Location: Gold Hill, NC25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rv7charlie View Post
Should that behavior be factored into the operational procedures of a 'normal' RV? At 80 kts in my -4 with wood prop, I'd miss the threshold at the *departure* end of most runways I fly from/to. :-) Stalling would never be an issue unless I decided to add a Top Gun move to the emergency procedures.

Charlie
No. The point is that if you don't do actual testing on your plane with real power off tests, starting high and learning feeling and measuring, and onto going to actual landings, you will never know or understand how your plane behaves and responds.
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  #24  
Old 09-08-2015, 07:14 AM
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agirard7a agirard7a is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Newport, RI
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Default Turn

I had a very great learning experience when I got my tail wheel
Endorsement in an RV-6. I was taught this manuver by a very experienced
And reputable instructor within this community. This portion of my training was worth all the money as I never out of fear, would ever have practiced this manuver.

With two larger people and full tanks and I'm sure the instructors pucker factor,
100 mph was the target glide. Climbing out at 120, at 500 agl, the throttle was pushed to idle. Immediate focus was on air speed as I continued the climb to 100 mph then dropped the nose to maintain 100 and began to bank the plane.
The only way to pull this off at this altitude is with an aggressive 50-60 deg bank. I was assured at 100 we where safe to do this. Before I knew it we where heading back to the runway and needed to level off the wings. Deployed full flaps, maintained 80mph glide and dead sticked half way down the runway. Did this multiple times. This was fantastic skills to learn on how this is done.

I have practiced this manuaver on my own at altitude and 1k Agl. At 1k AGL, focus was needed to disburse the energy so I would not overshoot the runway.

My departure/run up checklist now includes an engine out emergency landing checklist. Set the altitude bug 600' above field elv., determine direction of turn based on wind.

I'm sure if reality struck and the prop stopped turning at 500-600 AGL, I would still look for my options for a straight in approach into an open area, however with no option for straight in, at least I will know how it's done and be somewhat prepared. It's a do it right or die manuaver. One that I hope I will never have to do.
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  #25  
Old 09-08-2015, 07:37 AM
sailvi767 sailvi767 is offline
 
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Location: Charlotte NC
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In reading the thread one thing popped out in my mind. The poster was getting a accelerated stall in the simulated turn back yet had AOA installed. That indicates there is something incorrect in the AOA installation or calibration. I don't know if the dynon AOA is a derived or actual AOA but I would spend some time sorting it out.
G
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  #26  
Old 09-08-2015, 07:41 AM
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agirard7a agirard7a is offline
 
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[quote=jonweisw;1012442]This is all GREAT advice! I'm looking forward to going back out and incorporating this into the 'experiment'. A couple questions and observations to add to the discussion;

"1) The concept of trading speed for altitude makes sense to me - doing everything possible to avoid a stall. However, that seems to suggest that the climb should really be a Vy climb and then some (someone stated as much). On the other hand, the turn-back decision altitude (which is what makes the decision one way or the other) is just that - an altitude. So, wouldn't it make more sense to set that altitude prior to departure and then Vx it all the way there (ie, get to that altitude as fast as "

This was my questions as well. Vx or Vy was not recommended for this manuaver. If you loose an engine at Vx, or even Vy, your close to stall speed by the time you react, you have to gain airspeed loosing valuable altitude in order to turn back. If you have 100 to 120 airspeed at 500 AGL, your much better off than having 80 or 90. Sure you will reach500-600 AGL sooner, but you won't be able to safely turn the plane around by the time you put the nose back down to gain valuable airspeed.
I personally climb out between 100-120 for this reason, it also keeps my #3 cylinder a bit cooler. People die from this by lack of airspeed in the turns or by stretching it out to get back. The energy created by a 100 mph dive is good to have.
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Al Girard, Newport, RI
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Last edited by agirard7a : 09-08-2015 at 08:03 AM.
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  #27  
Old 09-08-2015, 08:06 AM
jonweisw jonweisw is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailvi767 View Post
In reading the thread one thing popped out in my mind. The poster was getting a accelerated stall in the simulated turn back yet had AOA installed. That indicates there is something incorrect in the AOA installation or calibration. I don't know if the dynon AOA is a derived or actual AOA but I would spend some time sorting it out.
G
No -- this was in the course of trying to figure out the best combination of speed and bank angle to get it right. Wasn't using the AOA when I noticed this. Only mentioned it because it is pretty pronounced in our planes..
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  #28  
Old 09-08-2015, 08:07 AM
jonweisw jonweisw is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahuna View Post
No. The point is that if you don't do actual testing on your plane with real power off tests, starting high and learning feeling and measuring, and onto going to actual landings, you will never know or understand how your plane behaves and responds.
Do you actually turn your engine OFF for this???? I'm too afraid to do this....even at altitude.
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  #29  
Old 09-08-2015, 08:10 AM
pvalovich pvalovich is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Ridgecrest, CA
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Default Turn Back Considerations

One thing missing from this thread regarding the 45 - 60 degree AOB turn (I do 60): you need to be familiar with your planes handling characteristics at 60 degrees AOB while aggressively pulling g's near - not into - a stall. Be able to pull hard and know what it feels like to maintain controllability just above (pick a stall margin you're comfortable with) stall. A 45 - 60 degree AOB turn without pulling won't work.
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  #30  
Old 09-08-2015, 08:26 AM
sailvi767 sailvi767 is offline
 
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Location: Charlotte NC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonweisw View Post
No -- this was in the course of trying to figure out the best combination of speed and bank angle to get it right. Wasn't using the AOA when I noticed this. Only mentioned it because it is pretty pronounced in our planes..
Ok, I was not sure in reading the original post. Do you remember if you were getting a warning from the AOA before the wing drop? If not I would still look into the calibration. Your single best tool to performing a max rate turn at high angle of bank and low airspeed should be the AOA.
G
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