Avionics, are they needed from get go?

[Dgamble]

Originally Posted by Waterobert

I am thinking off building RV-12 next year, so for now I can only plan and read about building options. Since RV-12 can be flown with sport plane licence following Van's plan has to be done diligently in order to get the plane certified as LSA. My question is about avionics. Do you really need $14-15K glass panel to get it certified and fly it ? I am thinking off getting used airspeed, altimeter, tachometer and fuel gauge and add fancy glass panel later. Will I be allowed to fly?
Thanks.

i don't know if you're a first-time builder or not, but I was. I can tell you from that point-of-view that one of the most attractive things about the RV-12 kit to me was that I had very little actual thinking/fabricating/customization work to do. As a first-timer, singing from the Van's hymnal helped to de-scarify a very daunting project to an appreciable degree. At a minimum, you would have to start with blank aluminum stock for your panel. You're going to have a big (and probably expensive) set of wiring harnesses to pare down to just the wires you need, and you're going to have to figure out what those are for yourself. They all feed into a electronic junction box that you will probably want to keep, and you'll have to develop a good knowledge of it's inner workings.

In my book, you're chasing a false economy. Save money by looking at a vinyl wrap rather than paint, or consider a used Rotax (that too will force you into E-AB, but in a more benign way) rather than new. Even then, you're going to have to buy the rest of the firewall forward a la carte rather than in the Van's engine package.

My opinion is that the Van's design made every effort to make owner-friendly design decisions that provide an excellent balance between cost and capability. There's a reason that Sporty's has chosen the 12 as their annual raffle plane more than once.

[Bill_H]

You can buy many completed RVs of different types for much less than the cost of an RV12 kit. You will have CONSIDERABLE work installing steam gauges rather than an EFIS. Depending on how you do that work, you will moderately (for sure) to majorly (likely) affect the resale value of the plane, because redoing all the avionics stuff on a completed kit would be a lot of very unpleasant work. The buyer pool of folks that want a completed RV12 and would consider a save-cost steam gauge version is low ("Hmmmm, what ELSE did this guy save money on?...) I would want many many thousands of dollars in discount value to take that on. I doubt you would even get discounted kit parts cost for the completed plane.

I agree with Dave - go standard on the avionics and save money on a used Rotax. Then you have a 40 hour fly off and your resale will be less - not so much because of the used Rotax but because as an EAB, a buyer cannot do the annual condition inspection themselves (unless they are already a certified mechanic.) When you sell an ELSA to a non builder, they can take a weekend EAA course and then do the annual condition inspection.

[bhassel]

Thanks Mel for clarifying! I can't tell you how long I was confused over ELSA vs. SLSA vs. EAB!

Another option to consider is to buy the tailcone/emp kit, the wing kit, the fwd fuse kit and the finish kit. It's always nice to have more than one kit to work on at a time. I've found little gremlins sometimes pop up and you need to reorder a part. Of course you may not have gremlins in your part of the country. If you have more than one kit you can work on something else. Of course sometimes you can skip ahead, but sometimes you can't.

You can always finance the engine and/or avionics. What you've already spent on the kits applies to the down payment and of course can keep your wallet happier.

Rates for financing Van's aircraft are (or at least were when I looked) actually less than for an older Cessna or Piper. The key is either buying or already have bought your engine. Places like NAFCO want to see that 'form' with the engine serial number on it (since I don't have mine yet I can't tell which form that is). Once they see that, they consider it an airplane even if pieces parts are still in the box. Rates are lower when you get to this point since its an airplane according to the aircraft kit financing companies and the term of the loan is longer (up to 15 years).

The pain is in paying the financing, so the less you need to borrow, the better off you are.

Bob

[dynonsupport]

I know we're one of the avionics companies so we're biased, but:

As others have said, the concern over the cost of "glass" avionics is probably a false economy.

The Dynon Avionics Kit from Vans is $13,995.

In this is a com radio and a transponder. Unless you are planning on flying only out in remote areas, these are requirements in any airplane. You're looking at $4,000 for these two items if you go another route. Plus, the kit includes all the wiring, and antennas. So $4,500.

Also included is an ELT, which is required everywhere. Additionally, an intercom so you can talk to your passenger, again, all with wiring and antennas. Easy $1,500 there.

The avionics kit also includes all your switches, wiring for the whole plane pre-made, and fuses needed for things like the alternator, flaps, and lighting that has nothing to do with your avionics choice. So another $1,000 there.

So $7,000 of the $14,000 is stuff you will have no matter what your panel looks like.

So really, your "avionics" are $7,000 with rough math.

You can likely get away with just an airspeed, altimeter, compass, fuel gauge, RPM, coolant, and a few more gauges. In the end, those are going to cost you at least $3,000. They are also going to take you a lot longer to install because they aren't plug-and-play like the avionics kits are from Vans.

So in our math, you're looking at maybe a $4,000 delta for a full glass panel against an extraordinarily basic panel, that doesn't have a DG, attitude, VSI, moving map, fuel computer, etc.

While $4K is far from nothing, it's also far from $14K that you may be thinking you can save. Consider the additional functions of that $4K (like a moving map with no subscription costs), and the resale value of the plane, and it's really a lot less.

Finally, you might just fly on the same day, given the extra work and time that will be required to hook up all this stuff in a custom panel that Van's doesn't support. You'll need to make a custom panel, and do all your own wiring, find your own switches, fuses, and more.

[joedallas]

Thing have a way of changing over time if you are concerned about the cost, start with the fuselage kit first. Some of the builders don't install the tailcone to last anyway. The wings can be built after the finish kit.
Leave all your options open as long as you can, you may not have a money problem down the road.
If money is still a problem there will most likely be tailcone and wing kits that are not finished you can buy and save enough to help with the avionics.
The Fuselage and finish kit will be behind you and the cost of these kits will go up do to inflation
MY View

Joe D

Originally Posted by Waterobert

I am thinking off building RV-12 next year, so for now I can only plan and read about building options. Since RV-12 can be flown with sport plane licence following Van's plan has to be done diligently in order to get the plane certified as LSA. My question is about avionics. Do you really need $14-15K glass panel to get it certified and fly it ? I am thinking off getting used airspeed, altimeter, tachometer and fuel gauge and add fancy glass panel later. Will I be allowed to fly?
Thanks.

[TomVal]

Originally Posted by dynonsupport

I know we're one of the avionics companies so we're biased, but:

As others have said, the concern over the cost of "glass" avionics is probably a false economy.

The Dynon Avionics Kit from Vans is $13,995.

In this is a com radio and a transponder. Unless you are planning on flying only out in remote areas, these are requirements in any airplane. You're looking at $4,000 for these two items if you go another route. Plus, the kit includes all the wiring, and antennas. So $4,500.

Also included is an ELT, which is required everywhere. Additionally, an intercom so you can talk to your passenger, again, all with wiring and antennas. Easy $1,500 there.

The avionics kit also includes all your switches, wiring for the whole plane pre-made, and fuses needed for things like the alternator, flaps, and lighting that has nothing to do with your avionics choice. So another $1,000 there.

So $7,000 of the $14,000 is stuff you will have no matter what your panel looks like.

So really, your "avionics" are $7,000 with rough math.

You can likely get away with just an airspeed, altimeter, compass, fuel gauge, RPM, coolant, and a few more gauges. In the end, those are going to cost you at least $3,000. They are also going to take you a lot longer to install because they aren't plug-and-play like the avionics kits are from Vans.

So in our math, you're looking at maybe a $4,000 delta for a full glass panel against an extraordinarily basic panel, that doesn't have a DG, attitude, VSI, moving map, fuel computer, etc.

While $4K is far from nothing, it's also far from $14K that you may be thinking you can save. Consider the additional functions of that $4K (like a moving map with no subscription costs), and the resale value of the plane, and it's really a lot less.

Finally, you might just fly on the same day, given the extra work and time that will be required to hook up all this stuff in a custom panel that Van's doesn't support. You'll need to make a custom panel, and do all your own wiring, find your own switches, fuses, and more.

Robert,

Yikes...hope GRT is not reading this! Dynon hit the nail on the head. If at all possible, budget for the Skyview standard package. It is a beautifully integrated system and meets the 2020 ADSB compliance requirements. You will not have to stress with the cost of adding a patchwork of components at a later date to meet those standards. From a building, cost, and investment perspective, this would be the way to go.

Btw...I still like my GRT.

[Top Cat]

Originally Posted by dynonsupport

I know we're one of the avionics companies so we're biased, but:

As others have said, the concern over the cost of "glass" avionics is probably a false economy.

The Dynon Avionics Kit from Vans is $13,995.

In this is a com radio and a transponder. Unless you are planning on flying only out in remote areas, these are requirements in any airplane. You're looking at $4,000 for these two items if you go another route. Plus, the kit includes all the wiring, and antennas. So $4,500.

Also included is an ELT, which is required everywhere. Additionally, an intercom so you can talk to your passenger, again, all with wiring and antennas. Easy $1,500 there.

The avionics kit also includes all your switches, wiring for the whole plane pre-made, and fuses needed for things like the alternator, flaps, and lighting that has nothing to do with your avionics choice. So another $1,000 there.

So $7,000 of the $14,000 is stuff you will have no matter what your panel looks like.

So really, your "avionics" are $7,000 with rough math.

You can likely get away with just an airspeed, altimeter, compass, fuel gauge, RPM, coolant, and a few more gauges. In the end, those are going to cost you at least $3,000. They are also going to take you a lot longer to install because they aren't plug-and-play like the avionics kits are from Vans.

So in our math, you're looking at maybe a $4,000 delta for a full glass panel against an extraordinarily basic panel, that doesn't have a DG, attitude, VSI, moving map, fuel computer, etc.

While $4K is far from nothing, it's also far from $14K that you may be thinking you can save. Consider the additional functions of that $4K (like a moving map with no subscription costs), and the resale value of the plane, and it's really a lot less.

Finally, you might just fly on the same day, given the extra work and time that will be required to hook up all this stuff in a custom panel that Van's doesn't support. You'll need to make a custom panel, and do all your own wiring, find your own switches, fuses, and more.

If you really like round dials?you can select the 'Six Pack" option on the Skyview screen!!

[yankee-flyer]

but buy the avionics kit last! If you put in analog gauges (something I really would have like to do) making it E-AB in addition to the fact that a buyer will NOT be able to take the 16-houh course and be able to do the condition inspection himself, you'll save a LOT of blood, sweat, and four-letter words. I watched my hangar-mate spend about 5 months wiring his avionics (same Dynon and GPS I have). It took me only a week to have all the avionics in, hooked up, and working on the first try. And I DIDN'T know what I was doing, just followed the instructions. Buy the avionics last because something will have changed by the time you're ready to do them. I bought mine with the kit and there were several changes before I installed them, with the Skyview coming just after first flight.

That Said, as soon as I got the pink slip I installed and analog airspeed, altimeter, and ball. Yeah, electrical systems NEVER fail!

Wayne 120241/143WM

[DonFromTX]

Just another option (however I would highly recommend the Dynon stuff regardless of cost). My friend bought a finished RV12 without avionics and engine at a very reasonable price (Builder probably had sticker shock when pricing a Rotax and Dynon stuff). A Viking engine and some used radio, xponder, and minimal round gauges put him in the air in a few WEEKS, and he has been flying happily with that for some time now. Maybe with the surplus of cash by doing it that way, he has more fuel money, but he flys much more than my friends that have done the ELSA route. Annual condition inspection cost? Come on now, as an A&P I (and others) do them for free quite often just for the fun of it, especially on an RV 12 EAB.
He will receive less if he sells it sure, but his total cost is less than half what an ELSA builder puts out, so why worry about resale?

[rvbuilder2002]

Originally Posted by DonFromTX

Just another option (however I would highly recommend the Dynon stuff regardless of cost). My friend bought a finished RV12 without avionics and engine at a very reasonable price (Builder probably had sticker shock when pricing a Rotax and Dynon stuff). A Viking engine and some used radio, xponder, and minimal round gauges put him in the air in a few WEEKS, and he has been flying happily with that for some time now. Maybe with the surplus of cash by doing it that way, he has more fuel money, but he flys much more than my friends that have done the ELSA route. Annual condition inspection cost? Come on now, as an A&P I (and others) do them for free quite often just for the fun of it, especially on an RV 12 EAB.
He will receive less if he sells it sure, but his total cost is less than half what an ELSA builder puts out, so why worry about resale?

I need some help seeing how the math works out for that to be true Don.

The current prices of the basic RV-12 Airframe kit along with the prices list on the Viking web site for the engine and install kits adds up to about $48000. To that still needs to be added all avionics and engine & flight instruments, everything for the electrical system, etc. I think it is very conservative to say that at least an additional $7000 would have to be spent. That totals up to $55000. In round numbers, 1/2 of the current RV-12 complete kit would be about $35,000.
By my math he would have had to have bought the completed RV-12 airframe for only about $5000 for your statement to be true.